Another Screenshot

Post by **Enjay** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 7:17 am

I think you are correct about id. They have (obviously) patched a number of their products but this seems to be more to do with a genuine desire to fix/improve the product rather than to get a product - in any condition - out of the door. Lets hope they continue like that. I see no reason why they shouldn't.

On an entirely different tack and not even remotely related to id (so why am I mentioning it?), Thief: Deadly Shadows - that really seems like a release now, patch later product. There are a number of glaring bugs, one pretty damaging to people's enjoyment of the game, in that product that really should have been picked up during testing. The worst one has been patched with an emergency patch, but many other bugs remain. And no clear policy has emerged yet as to how to deal with the thousands of shipped X-Box versions which have the bugs and no way to patch. I still enjoyed the game though, but I'd rather have one that worked as intended.

HotWax · Post by **HotWax** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 7:24 am

The XBox issue is exactly why I don't own one. Companies that have gotten used to a lax testing system where customers gladly pay money for broken products just to get them a few months sooner, are not the kind of companies you want designing console games that simply can't be patched.

In my opinion, the correct remedy, and the one that should be expected and demanded, is that all bad copies of the game be replaced, free of charge, with a fixed version. You paid for a working game, not something riddled with bugs.

Post by **Enjay** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 7:46 am

HotWax wrote:In my opinion, the correct remedy, and the one that should be expected and demanded, is that all bad copies of the game be replaced, free of charge, with a fixed version. You paid for a working game, not something riddled with bugs.

Exactly. To be fair, that does seem to be the solution that is likely to happen. However, the responsibility for doing so seems to fall between Eidos and Ion Storm and the "strategy" hasn't been worked out yet. Then there is the question of when do they do it - after this one bug has been fixed, or do they wait until more of them have been squashed? If they wait, do they withdraw the product in the interim? Ultimately, these are all Eidos/Ion Storm's problems and should not be the problems of the customer.

Related: I know that it is impossible, or at least entirely impractical, to make bug free software but it does seem to be one of the few industries where customers are happy to accept and pay for goods that are not fit for the purpose they were intended. Our lax attitude as customers allows the software manufacturers to release sub standard software on their terms, knowing the public will accept it as karma. Even brand new, just released software will have little caveats in the manual about "known issues". So the manufacturers are releasing a product they know does not work fully and yet feel that telling people about it is good enough. Worse, apparently it is good enough because we accept it.

No industry is perfect, especially the auto industry, but can you imagine finding buried deep in the manual of your new car "Note, we are aware there is an issue where the direction indicators will not work when the headlamps are on. Please check our web site for news on updates to this product." or "We are aware that the tyres on your vehicle are not compatable with certain road surfaces." OK, I know, I know - but it's the principle man!

Lexus Alyus · Post by **Lexus Alyus** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:56 am

Soooo, what abpout the testers? Aren't they supposed to find the bugs, report them and then the companies fix the bugs? Not only are the companies being lax but the testers are being a bit laz too... either that or the companies just don't listen to the testers, ion which case, the testers job might as well be obsolete...

Something is wrong if people are too lazy to even do the simplest parts of their jobs. I would rather play a good game that works finew than a good game that was rushed and resaults in a less than good game or even a bad game!

Slightly related, in HL I'm encountering an annoying bug that causes me to get stuck in lisfts and moiving brushes. This has never been a problem before and I've only noticed it since installing the most recent patch! Whats going off there then? Anyone familiar with this bug? It's beginning to cause hours of frustration...

I really hope that Doom3 and Half Life 2 are both relatively major bug free, they are the two game that I am looking forward to playing!

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:17 am

Lexus Alyus wrote:Soooo, what abpout the testers? Aren't they supposed to find the bugs, report them and then the companies fix the bugs? Not only are the companies being lax but the testers are being a bit laz too... either that or the companies just don't listen to the testers, ion which case, the testers job might as well be obsolete...

Don't blame the testers. Many companys don't want to pay for them so they don't get good ones. I have seen this in every company I did some work for so far. Testing is a very time consuming job and to pay those people normally is simply something almost no company can afford.

Lexus Alyus · Post by **Lexus Alyus** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:06 am

I'd like to be a game tester, but that would turn my life into "Go to work, sit on my arse and play computer games... go home, sit on my arse and play computer games." That woud be a sad life... but my life ATM is "Go to work, sit on my arse at a computer for 6 hours answeing calls.... go home, sit on my arse on the computer all day staring at a message board on the internet..." damn... I need to get out more

Post by **Enjay** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:27 pm

It sounds like the time given to playtesting wasn't long enough, so perhaps the feedback simply wasn't received in time, or couldn't be acted on in time or the testers weren't given enough time to do their job. To give you a flavour, here are some of the glaring errors that should have been picked up:

Whenever you load a game, the difficulty settings for the AI (the enemies, essentially) gets set to normal. This means you may start out playing on easy or hard, but as soon as you load a game, you may have the mission goals of the setting you chose, but the difficulty of hiding, evading your enemies and fighting will be that of the normal setting. This is the bug that has been patched.

It is impossible to blackjack or backstab a sitting enemy. Very frustrating. There are quite a few guys in the game just sitting there on chairs. They are just asking to be sneaked up on and clubbed silently (which is the original intent) but instead of being able to KO them or kill them with one blow, they always stand up and are consequently alerted to your presence and are therefore a much harder target. (For those that don't know thief, once an enemy has seen you, your blows are much less effective.)

The ingame menus have a scroll bar. Clicking the button that is supposed to scroll you down the screen smoothly doesn't, it jumps you to the end of the list. Annoying.

It crashes with some gamepads.

Candles magically relighting for a few seconds after you put them out.

There are plenty others too. I mean loads of them, but those are a few obvious ones. I spotted them first time through (except the gamepad one - I don't have a gamepad plugged in). They should have been obvious to anyone playing the game, especially if the reason they were playing was to find bugs.

Anyway, I'm miles off topic now. I apologise.

Right, Zdoom, next version, Strife support, carry on

HotWax · Post by **HotWax** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:55 pm

For errors that glaringly obvious, the programmers probably knew about them but were being forced by their publisher to ignore them and just get the game "done" to a state they could ship it in. Sadly, that state isn't even an attempt at being bug free.

arioch · Post by **arioch** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:21 pm

Lexus Alyus wrote:Slightly related, in HL I'm encountering an annoying bug that causes me to get stuck in lisfts and moiving brushes. This has never been a problem before and I've only noticed it since installing the most recent patch! Whats going off there then? Anyone familiar with this bug? It's beginning to cause hours of frustration...

Known problem for years. People have experienced this to varying degrees since the beginning of HL patches. The suggested workaround is to cheat and no-clip.

Valve isn't interested in fixing this. They're only interested in modifying the engine to complement counter-strike. The default maps of which I note has no moving brushes at all (wonder why?).

One more reason I hate Valve.

Post by **Bio Hazard** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:46 pm

i dont think id has to rush testing because they have infinite time to work on stuff. evrything they make is revolutionary. they dont have to make stuff quick to keep up with the jonses', they are the jonses'!

HotWax · Post by **HotWax** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:01 pm

More importantly, they're not owned by their publisher as 99% of game companies are. If their publisher were to tell them "You're going to ship by this date or else", they'd be fired in short order.

I love id.

Lexus Alyus · Post by **Lexus Alyus** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:32 am

It's a good thing really... kinda makes you think that if id were owned by their publisher then the gaming world for the PC could be utter shite... *shivers* that's a scary thought

.

HotWax · Post by **HotWax** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:07 am

Well, I don't know about that. Blizzard is owned by Vivendi Universal and still manages to crank out a hit game every time...

arioch · Post by **arioch** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:39 am

HotWax wrote:Well, I don't know about that. Blizzard is owned by Vivendi Universal and still manages to crank out a hit game every time...

That trend might stop after WoW, depending on how many more of the old team Blizzard hemorrhages after WoW.

Post by **Bio Hazard** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:15 pm

HotWax wrote:Well, I don't know about that. Blizzard is owned by Vivendi Universal and still manages to crank out a hit game every time...

ahhh, good to know that im not the only one who thinks blizzard has never made a bad title

Vivendi Universal probably understands that making a truly awesome game takes a hella lotta time and they plan accordingly