Hacx 2.0 -- Hacxmas Alpha!

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Should Hacx 2.0 enable jumping?

Yes
111
70%
No
24
15%
Don't Care
24
15%
 
Total votes: 159

Blzut3
 
 
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Re: Hacx 2.0 -- Hacxmas Alpha!

Post by Blzut3 »

Xaser wrote:I think the only way that clip would've gotten up there is because of ZDoom's "enhanced" item dropping behavior (where they jump up into the air a bit), which can't really be considered "Hacx Standard" behavior since EE doesn't do it. Maybe I should set some default compat flags? Minor issue, either way, but it's an inconsistency for sure.
I still think you should ensure that jumping doesn't break the maps and reenable it, but wouldn't adding impassible lines prevent the clip from spawning there?
Gez
 
 
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Re: Hacx 2.0 -- Hacxmas Alpha!

Post by Gez »

By the way, you can't disable jumping in Eternity.

Just in case where you felt like you needed some motivation to enable jumping.
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Xaser
 
 
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Re: Hacx 2.0 -- Hacxmas Alpha!

Post by Xaser »

Cue NeuralStunner coming in and saying "See, it's not just me! :P "

I've always taken the "it's not that simple" stance regarding enabling jumping: It's going to take a decent deal of work to get it working in the original maps*, for very little gain. The only thing that's lost at all by not supporting jumping in the original maps is any sort of 'tactical advantage' it brings to the table. I guess there's also the freedom aspect of it as well (i.e. "If it looks like you can reach it, you probably can"), but this never stopped Doom or Heretic.

*MAP12 in particular will require major changes and this will change the role of every "railing-height" blocking texture in the game so much that these areas would require retexturing that would most likely change the look of the area. Again, is it really worth taking the time to change this for every map?

[EDIT] I've gone ahead and set up a poll on this issue (no bias, no frills) on whether or not people would like to see jumping (or don't care either way). It would be a bit bullheaded to say "No, and I won't ever consider it", though know that I have my reasons on it.
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Snarboo
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Re: Hacx 2.0 -- Hacxmas Alpha!

Post by Snarboo »

I don't think jumping should be enabled, the base game works fine as is without it. It's also a gameplay choice that the I feel the author should have full control over, especially when the maps are not designed with jumping in mind.
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BouncyTEM
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Re: Hacx 2.0 -- Hacxmas Alpha!

Post by BouncyTEM »

The only thing that bothers me is the fact the pistol still uses two bullets. :P *shot*
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NeuralStunner
 
 
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Re: Hacx 2.0 -- Hacxmas Alpha!

Post by NeuralStunner »

I don't (usually) "jumpcheat" except when I'm trying to get back to somewhere I'd been, and all that's between is a low wall and a long trek - I follow progression like I'm supposed to, if I'm playing seriously at all. Even in Oblige maps which are infamous for roundabout paths to anywhere.

I've always understood that trying to "support" jumping/ crouching would be way more testing and map editing than it was worth. I don't like the idea of disabling them completely is all. It smells of cheating prevention which turns me a bit, regardless of what project it happens in.

I'm certainly not saying "Hacx 2.0 sucks because they don't let you jump," that would be Thug level stupid. :P

I'm going to vote "Yes" on the poll, even though it doesn't quite capture the spirit of the complaint for me - it's not "should we enable jumping" but "should we not prohibit jumping".
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Ravick
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Re: Hacx 2.0 -- Hacxmas Alpha!

Post by Ravick »

:shock:

I didn't want to start all this discussion. I was just reporting that bug of the clips that falls on higher sectors. Well, if the author says that he'd prefer that his game does not allow jumping, it is enough reason to me to it don't allow jumping (or crouching). Maybe making enemies spawn their items instead of 'dropping' it would fix that bug.

I voted yes because I would like to play it with jumping (and crouching), but not because it should have these features. If the author decides that HacX 2 wont have jumping, I will play it without it, and I will enjoy it this way. The first HacX was badass without that.
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BlueFireZ88
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Re: Hacx 2.0 -- Hacxmas Alpha!

Post by BlueFireZ88 »

So how is the plot being handled in 2.0? Will the plot be expanded from the original?
Sodaholic
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Re: Hacx 2.0 -- Hacxmas Alpha!

Post by Sodaholic »

I voted for no jumping, as the gameplay wasn't designed around it at all, would be a pain to redo the maps to work with it, and just doesn't fit. I think that jumping should be disabled, as it reminds players that the game is supposed to be played without jumping, in case they were unaware of it (i.e. don't mind it, but were uninformed due to not reading the documentation). If someone wants to jump (and therefore cheat) anyway, they can always override it, so I think that having it disabled serves as a good reminder, and doesn't hinder being able if the player chooses to anyway.
BlueFireZ88 wrote:So how is the plot being handled in 2.0? Will the plot be expanded from the original?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's going to be follow the original design document's story.
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TheDarkArchon
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Re: Hacx 2.0 -- Hacxmas Alpha!

Post by TheDarkArchon »

I don't particularly care either way if jumping is enabled. It's you guys call if you want jumping or not.
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Project Dark Fox
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Re: Hacx 2.0 -- Hacxmas Alpha!

Post by Project Dark Fox »

I'm not going to miss jumping for a remake of a classic where it wasn't in mind in the first place.
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esselfortium
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Re: Hacx 2.0 -- Hacxmas Alpha!

Post by esselfortium »

If the maps don't properly support jumping, it doesn't really make any sense to enable it. If you want to go through the trouble of checking every map for cases where jumping could be used to sequence-break the game, I doubt anyone will mind the feature being available, but I wouldn't if you're keeping the maps as-is.
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Zero X. Diamond
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Re: Hacx 2.0 -- Hacxmas Alpha!

Post by Zero X. Diamond »

Why bother disabling jumping in the first place? The people who don't want to jump won't, and the people who want to will. It's pretty simple and I don't understand why there's so much controversy. Should the WAD author really be telling me how to play the game once it's released? At that point, I'd say it's my choice unless the guy comes over here, sits down, and plays the game for me.
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esselfortium
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Re: Hacx 2.0 -- Hacxmas Alpha!

Post by esselfortium »

Zero X. Diamond wrote:Why bother disabling jumping in the first place? The people who don't want to jump won't, and the people who want to will. It's pretty simple and I don't understand why there's so much controversy. Should the WAD author really be telling me how to play the game once it's released? At that point, I'd say it's my choice unless the guy comes over here, sits down, and plays the game for me.
It's also your choice to type iddqd and idkfa if you want to run around shooting everything with the bfg, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the map author to make that the default state.

Most things released for ZDoom are built to allow jumping in the first place, unlike HacX's maps which were originally made more than a decade ago. Players typically assume that if they're playing a ZDoom wad and jumping isn't disabled, the maps have been tested to make sure that jumping won't break them, which isn't the case for these maps. You can jump up onto an otherwise unreachable ledge to get a key early and skip half the level, jump through a window and prevent a trap from triggering, skip a map trigger and prevent the next area from opening up at all, get the player trapped...

This is even more important given that HacX 2.0 is a new version of the game being targeted directly for source ports and being built as a standalone iwad, which can then be promoted to outside communities like Action Doom 2 and other standalone games were. So there's no reasonable expectation that players should know there might be game-breaking bugs caused by jumping somewhere.
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NeuralStunner
 
 
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Re: Hacx 2.0 -- Hacxmas Alpha!

Post by NeuralStunner »

esselfortium wrote:It's also your choice to type iddqd and idkfa if you want to run around shooting everything with the bfg, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the map author to make that the default state.
Jump capability is the default state, for (both) the engine(s). But if you'e going to compare it to a cheat, you see my point about the "how dare you cheat" aspect of the map flag existing in the first place.
esselfortium wrote:So there's no reasonable expectation that players should know there might be game-breaking bugs caused by jumping somewhere.
This point made some sense, granted.

Compromise time: I'd be fine with a ReadMe note on how to reenable this feature if desired. a "this is not supported" notice would be sufficient as well. And you wouldn't have to worry too much about it by that point, who's going to bother reading a ReadMe anyway? :P

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