[DONE!] Doom: The Lost Episode

[Captain Ventris]

I must congratulate Xaser on typing up one of the least abusive retorts I've seen in a while.

But seriously, Phobus, if this really is some vendetta against Xaser, you have serious problems, buddy. What, did Virus not get enough attention in your opinion? It's a niche wad, Phobus. For God's sake, at most 8 people are concerned with ZDoom Wars. Xaser may make more or less silly things at times, but they are silly things that play somewhat like Doom, and this is a Doom forum. Of course it's going to get more attention. Is it right that unique wads get less attention? Well, that's up for debate, but that is how things go.

[esselfortium]

Erm. I'm not really sure if Phobus and every other person on this forum should really be reasonably expected to play every wad that's available in public beta testing, without just waiting until it's finished so as to not spoil the full experience.

And I've got to agree on some things -- the weird voidy sky-everywhere scrolling-green-skull-walls thing seemed almost like it was trying too hard to be surreal and weird, the circular holes in e5m1 made me think of this sort of thing, and including as many Doom2 resources as it did I feel like it probably should have just been made as a Doom2 addon. I played some earlier builds of it and thought it was kind of nifty, though I still had some misgivings (probably the wrong word choice) about some aspects of it. I didn't say anything because everyone else seemed to love it and I felt like it'd just be insulting considering how prominent that style is throughout this wad

[hnsolo77]

god damn trippy, i like it...

except for Caroll St. Station, i kinda got fed up with wandering around with what appeared to be no enemies but a few here or there... then i found the switch that got them swarming in but halfway through killing them i said screw it and skipped it...

and those hole thingys in E5M1 were a bit annoying

[Csonicgo]

Erm. I'm not really sure if Phobus and every other person on this forum should really be reasonably expected to play every wad that's available in public beta testing, without just waiting until it's finished so as to not spoil the full experience.

And I've got to agree on some things -- the weird voidy sky-everywhere scrolling-green-skull-walls thing seemed almost like it was trying too hard to be surreal and weird, the circular holes in e5m1 made me think of this sort of thing, and including as many Doom2 resources as it did I feel like it probably should have just been made as a Doom2 addon. I played some earlier builds of it and thought it was kind of nifty, though I still had some misgivings (probably the wrong word choice) about some aspects of it. I didn't say anything because everyone else seemed to love it and I felt like it'd just be insulting considering how prominent that style is throughout this wad

that still doesn't excuse his caustic demeanor.

[Zippy]

Where did these large posts come from? I don't remember typing up any of these...

Oh! Oh. Other people who aren't me are actually arguing.




Unfortunately, I haven't played this yet and so have nothing to offer critically, but now that we've had such a reaction I'll have to move it up the queue.

With regards to the current argument, the only thing I will mention is that esselfortium is right: The "you could've brought this up while it was in beta" argument only works if Phobus actually played it while it was in beta (in a form that resembles the current end form). There is no rule or regulation that forum goers are obliged to test other people's works, and it can't be held against them if they choose not to.

[Cardboard Marty]

I did make some odd decisions in the design process -- the SSG, the Doom 2 stuff, the Archvile edit, and the entire theme, but I just decided to go for broke with the uniqueness factor. Love it or hate it -- but have some sense in it.

To me, this stuff right here is exactly why I like this "Lost Episode" so much. It feels like an expansion in a way that E4 wasn't. There's new content and an overall new feeling that just contributes to the entirety of the episode. I loved it through and through, and even if some parts of the maps aggravated me, I honestly can't say I've completely loved the original episodes either :P

But I do think it kind of stinks that all these critiques from other people didn't come up during beta-testing. :(

I do love your work Xaser and you've always been an inspiration to me. DON'T LET THEM TAKE YOUR MOTIVATION. :(

[BouncyTEM]

Now, to be fair, I can partially agree with the fact that, yes, if he wasn't involved in the beta in any way, he couldn't have possibly given such critique ahead of time.

However, it doesn't justify his rude demenanor, as Csonicgo mentioned, and it doesn't quite justify everything (especially on the graphic replacements) when there were plenty, plenty of previews ahead of time showcasing these.

Was the sky a little bit ugly? Yes.
Was that viewable in previews ahead of time? Yes...
Did anyone complain about it? Not that I know of, since I only glanced for Phobus's posts throughout this topic, but I didn't go too thorough. I didn't see him whine about it on the preview on page...6 I believe, why not then?

Why wait to make a massive ripfest when some of the points, at least, could've been brought ahead of time without the beta?

and if you check one of the earlier pages It gives the hint that Phobus was keeping an eye out for this topic. Somewhat hurts credibility.

Overall, i'm less concerned about the points he brings up, but more the way he did. If he had given his critique more politely, I wouldn't have needed to type up such a huge post, I wouldn't have lost nearly as much respect, and, frankly, I don't think we'd be having an issue here at all.

Sad, what a difference tone can make.

Now, i'm just going to politely step out of this topic. I've burst a vein or two on that larger rant, and frankly I would like to keep things civil.

I've said what I needed to. I liked the mod, Phobus didn't. I can respect that he didn't (not everyone's going to have the same tastes)
I can't respect his review of it.

[Jimmy]

I recall Phobus making hints that he wasn't quite able to grasp the comedic value of the "Sir Belfin" series and derivate works from MasterOFDeath and Kate - I don't think he's a "Xaser" person, to be quite frank. And it doesn't surprise me that much that he plain didn't like Lost Episode, though his brash attitude comes off as somewhat of a shock.

All of Xaser's stuff is right up my alley - his music, sprite edits, wacky level design, and insane sense of humor are all major contributors to why I just love him (platonically, that is...) in general.

I haven't had much time to play this yet, but I will soon - and hey, maybe I'll finally conquer E5M4, y'never know.

[Phobus]

Like I said - I did realise this was coming, and yes this was exactly how I felt. Funnily enough this has happened before, but because I did it to T667 and his Austerity project I didn't get the same reaction.

@"Personal Vendetta": Nope, sorry. Like I've said, I liked his previous works an awful lot in Zen Dynamics, ICOTAN, ZDCMP1 and ZPack.

@"Clique issue": Given how the reaction has come specifically and strongly from some members whilst others didn't really care, I think you can all see where I'm coming from here.

@"Did you even play it": Yes, how else do you think I was able to pick apart every map, give some bug reports and get through the whole deal. lostepis.wad is the name of the file I played, with an accompanying text file saying that it was made primarily by Xaser, with Wills as secondary mapping and a bit of help from a few others. Was my play time too slow for you lot? Too fast? I d/l'd straight after I said how I was going to, and promptly went on to play the whole wad. As I do for most short wads that catch my fancy. I then gave an opinion on the forum, as opposed to anonymously (or even named sometimes) on /idgames, as I usually do.

@"Why didn't you say anything before?": I believe I've made 4 posts in this thread now, and one of them was saying how I was happy to wait for the finished product, and that I was quite looking forwards to playing remakes of maps I'd never played before. Do I pay attention to everything in these forums? No, even as a moderator some things, like the majority of this thread, passed me by.

@"Lack of respect": Opinions are like arseholes - we all have one. If you didn't like mine, fair enough. If you didn't like how I put it, fair enough. I did fully state at the beginning that it was my opinion. I'm sure nobody would have objected if I'd have been a total arselick with similar enthusiasm, so I fear that part of the problem may be that my opinion just doesn't equal yours. Whatever the case, I'm not exactly losing sleep over it. I almost decided I'd just leave the thread alone, but decided the better of it afterwards.

@Ventris: It would appear that you are trying to get personal, something I largely avoided in my review (but not entirely I will concede). The mature thing here would have been to merely call me a bastard.

@Bouncy: Yes, maybe my mind has been warped into some kind of angry, caustic, horrific place to be. Or maybe I just though the mod was really that bad. It's not as if it's the first time I've posted what I thought this way. Only difference is that it was done at an esteemed member's project.

@Xaser: I felt it necessary to point out exactly what was wrong with it, as map by map is an easy way to also point out where I liked things. Whatever you do, don't lose motivation to work further, as a bad review, if anything, should be an encouragement to carry on and do better. Always gone that way for me. Do you get a bad test result and claim never to want to do anything again?

And on the note of why should I even care, I could ask you the exact same question. I'm sure you'll quickly find that we'd be going nowhere.

[ShadesMaster]

Great work all and all! I like the new intermission screen to boot!

[BouncyTEM]

@Phobus: Okay, that response was far more reasonable and clarifies a few things. Glad to have been proven wrong about a few points.

So much for quietly leaving the thread. XD

[Phobus]

I will concede that I was rather childishly considering calling you all out on the various accusations made and dissecting everything that people had said, but then of course I'd have considered myself something of a dickhead, as that would definite be making a flamewar out of nothing.

And as another example (for extra clarification) of me doing this sort of thing, I distinctly remember Nuke 'em's Stereotomy in ZPack being slayed by me. That went away quietly though, and since then the forum has been deleted.

Glad to see you've calmed down too.

[Wills]

I have no idea why you insist that some of us are in Xaser's secret clique, and that we're always obligated to mindlessly praise his work no matter what he does. FYI, I added some details and structures to one map that was already mostly done... and that makes me part of some sort of underground ass-kissing association?

The whole "clique conspiracy" seems to be the basis of not only your entire review but your post that "clarified" the accusations so unjustly thrown against you. Yes, you're entitled to the opinion that the episode sucked, but blaming its faults on some nonexistent group of Doomers is myopic and baffling.

[Phobus]

I do love how you all assume that the clique comment had anything to do with my opinion of the wad, and how that instantly turns me into some angry isolated nerd. Likewise I love how you, Wills, assume that you're instantly a part of this. What gave you that impression? Did I say you were in this clique? Did I specifically come out and say "And this here aforemention group of forumgoers is as follows: Xaser, Wills, x....".

Funnily enough, I don't think I did. Earlier I couldn't be bothered with clarifying that comment as I felt it was pretty obvious. But no, clearly not, as even fairly intelligent users have jumped to all manner of wrong conclusions. To give you an idea of these online groupings I'm now going to go into some in-depth detail, just to make my point and be sure that we're all in the right book, even if we're still not on the right page. (so much for this not happening)

By cliques in online communities, I mean little groupings of friends who back eachother up opinion-wise on almost everything, confer out of the forums on such things as IRC, band together to make jokes at users, talk about the goings on in the forums and occaissionally decide to act in these little groups to make a point. These groups are generally consistent and can be relied on to do this sort of thing. Generally when one posts, the others will follow with similar opinions. It's not exactly a secret that these groups exist, which is what made it so incredbily odd to me that I had all of these outlandish theories levelled at me. I was expecting more along the lines of "STFU Phobus u n00b, you don't know shit, this wad is great" from fanboys and the like. Not reasonable, established members to come flying in with ideas that I'm suddenly turning into some conspiracy theorist psychopath with an inferiority complex, and that I tell people their work is shit to make a specific point.

So an obvious choice would be Xaser, MoD, SnowKate and Zero Prophet (who are all mentioned in the text file as having helped out) - they're all friends, they all talk to eachother off of the forums and they all confer with eachother on work and the like. They have similar ideas, band together for stories, comedic things and share their WIPs with eachother first. This isn't a bad thing by far, but it does lead to close minded approaches to testing. It's like me only testing with myself - of course I like it, I made it. This is a group of similar minded people doing the same thing, which is the entire basis of comment. The fact that there was open betas doesn't necessarily mean much, as was shown here. People who posted opinions were largely the people who would play it anyway, because they knew they'd like it. Essel has given an example on why this happens. Yes Grimm did come out and make the point. People like me and Zippy, who may or may not have made a big difference in the development weren't interested in playing a non-final product, so of course we didn't have any input.

If you must know my reasons for disliking online "cliques" or groupings, here they go:

*The closed test mentality that showed up largely here. Yes people like Wills and Grimm do bring in outside opinions that help in things like public betas, but the key opinions come from people of the same mindset, which is little better than only testing a wad yourself.
*The occaissional group mentality that leaks on to forums from other things such as IRC and SkullTag. I noticed this when moderating, and found it most prominent when either a popular project appeared, or there was a flamewar
*The fact that you end up with carbon copy opinions all being posted by people who are like-minded, all at similar times (more of a pet irritation than anything else)
*(and now) This wad

These are largely why I lost interest in online gaming too. So there, are we all happy now, or shall we just descend into a nice mature flamewar to solve the problem?

[Wills]

I do love how you all assume that the clique comment had anything to do with my opinion of the wad, and how that instantly turns me into some angry isolated nerd.

I'm just assuming it had something to do with your opinion of the wad because you state it in your little summary at the end:

This map set goes on to my list of reasons why I don't like cliques within internet communities. Simply put, if you're going to create something and show it to your mates, they're going to say they like it. I had nothing to do with the development, and my only connection to Xaser is that I've played (and enjoyed may I add) some of his other serious works. So I was expecting another shining example of mapping, this time in Doom1. What I got was a chocolate box filled almost entirely with crap. Whoever told him that this was a good idea either was laughing behind his back, or just didn't really know what was coming. I'll honestly be surprised if the majority really do like this wad. I'll not bother with a numerical rating, as its fairly clear to say that I didn't like the overall product much at all, but a few bits were alright, or maybe even quite nice. Sad fact is that they're sullied by being in a box of crap.

Likewise I love how you, Wills, assume that you're instantly a part of this. What gave you that impression? Did I say you were in this clique? Did I specifically come out and say "And this here aforemention group of forumgoers is as follows: Xaser, Wills, x....".

You're implying that everyone who criticized you negatively (including me) is part of Xaser's little "clique". You said it yourself here:

@"Clique issue": Given how the reaction has come specifically and strongly from some members whilst others didn't really care, I think you can all see where I'm coming from here.

...

I really have nothing to complain about with the rest of your post, I do agree that groups more often than not lead to close-mindedness and misguided opinions. The real issue I have here is that you're blaming what you didn't like about the mapset on groups. If you hadn't been so eager to do that, I doubt I would have replied so brashly to your review.