Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

[namsan]

Hello, I have been using this forum for more than years...
As many other people said, the lack of transparency in the moderating process is, what I feel most disturbing.
The action of Marisa the magician was shocking and disappointing, but the moderation team should have handled this incident better.
I don't think I can fully trust the admins anymore.
(edit: grammer)

[wolfmanfp]

Caligari87

Why are you so obsessed with Cali? I get it, you like the guy, but this is just too much.

[yum13241]

Why are you so obsessed with Cali? I get it, you like the guy, but this is just too much.

And how is this relevant to anything? Why are you singling me out?
Stop the ad-hominem.

[DoomKrakken]

And if things don't ever change and this forum burns out. I hope someone will make a new forum, one that might have the right people at the helm. Moderators that are not currently involved with the Zdoom forums moderation staff.

Friendly reminder that the Doomer Boards are a thing. That'll be my fallback if things don't turn around.

Ouch! If there ever was a forum with a totally incompetent and biased staff, that'd be it. Good luck there, but that place is generally considered the cesspool of the Doom community. Every time I go there I come back with the desire to wash off the filth...

You say the staff there is totally incompetent and biased? I say the staff HERE is totally incompetent and biased.

Assuming we're both right, at least over there I can actually file criticisms and speak my mind without fear of getting canned. Can you honestly say the same for the ZDoom Forum as it stands right now?

[DreemurrDeceevurr]

so it's a choice between a site with biased administration that tried to cover up abuse and a site with biased administration that would want me dead for being queer, got it

[Caligari87]

Was absent for a bit because of real life (I have to eat and sleep, after all), but rest assured I am reading all responses even if I can't reply to them individually.

One particular sentiment I want to address that I've seen some people hint at: No one, absolutely no one on the staff, has ever (to my knowledge anyway) tried to excuse or justify or defend the exploitation of children. Many of my closest friends and family are CSA survivors, so I've seen the horrible effects it has. I would not stand for that kind of discussion if I saw it happening. Everyone involved agreed that Marisa's actions (when they became undeniably clear) were wrong and indefensible; it just wasn't clear at first how deep the problem was.

...This next part is very difficult for me, but if I don't say this openly, I could not say I'm being completely honest with myself or anyone else. I know I'm breaking a circle of trust, so I apologize in advance. I'm not in any of the staff chats right now because it's all on Discord and I left most of my servers for sanity. The last time I talked to anyone on the staff was two days ago (I sent a DM on the 18th to let weasel know I wouldn't be able to watch the forums for a few hours). I do not know what action plan (if any), the rest of the team is working on. All of that to say, the following statement is not coordinated with anyone else, either on the team or off:

I believe Rachael should step down from moderation.

• Rachael, I've not been a fan of your moderation style for a long time. At first I thought you were just very strong-willed and passionate. Which is true and fine, but it's also become clear to me over the past few years on the team that you're somewhat vindictive and paranoid. The majority of your policy decisions stem from a place of "circling the wagons" and shoring up defenses against some hypothetical horde of bad actors who are constantly trying to undermine, infiltrate, and destroy us. That's probably true, but not nearly to the extent that you treat it as.
  
  When I came on the team (genuine thank you for placing trust in me, by the way), I had hoped to help "moderate the moderation". At the time, my feelings weren't fully-formed, I just knew I wanted to make things better. However, I fell in line pretty quickly. I did make a few half-hearted attempts to address my concerns, but they didn't go anywhere. Usually, you thanked me for the input and said it was good to speak out. But the net result was never a change in moderation style. You just stopped asking for our input, choosing to act on your own instead of cooperatively. The rest of the team would just have to live with your decisions, because showing public disagreement would be a sign of weakness.
  
  Well, here we are. Maybe I should have tried harder.
  
  I want to be clear: I think you are a fine person. You've always been good to me. I believe you are just doing what you think is best, and I praise you for being true to that at all times. That said, many people in this thread have had harsh criticism, and I unfortunately have to agree a lot of it is justified. Ultimately I just don't think your vision is a good fit for the community anymore. I'm sorry.

For whatever it's worth at this point, I do believe Rachael brings a lot to the table in terms of webmaster support, so I would not have a problem with her continuing in that role, if she wanted to and that role could be separated from moderation duties. This is solely about community moderation. For Weasel, I see some sentiment that he should step down too, but I have no problem with him staying on board. If Rachael has been good to me, he's been even better. I think he's just tired and probably needs a break and a reset.

Moving forward, I would like to also publicly advocate that we start holding regular (yearly?) moderator and community guide "elections". I don't know what form this will take, but probably something where users can suggest people to be considered as moderators, and also show confidence/no confidence in the current moderation staff. Ideally, I'd like to see a "rotating" system where people can cycle on and off the team periodically with no ill will, as internet community management is by nature an isolating and stressful experience. I'd also like to see the admin team in general take a step back from day-to-day moderation, and trust those operations to community moderators and guides who are "in the trenches" rather than "on the tower." Our position as de-facto "dictators" (in terms of required top-level site management) doesn't mean we have to act like dictators.

To everyone else: This is not me staging a coup. This is not a hostile takeover. This isn't an admin slapfight. Absolutely DO NOT take my words as an excuse to turn this into some stupid fucking sportsball match with teams and cheerleaders. Lock up your keyboards if you have to. I'm taking a very difficult position against someone I consider a friend, and I'd appreciate it if everyone treated this situation with gravity and sobriety.

[Cage]

Since this matter concerns my both friend and a teammate, I feel I should respond.

PillowBlaster has been banned. He worded his post too emotionally and in a way that can be misinterpreted. But I know him for years, and with certainity I can say he is not a bigot.

This is very personal for me. As someone who has went through a hell after a huge controversy regarding a project I was involved with, yet did not contribute any of the offending elements, I had to deal with anxiety about possibly losing my friends, my career prospects, and reputation, and feeling shame and guilt about something I not only did not do, but I actually condemn myself. Such accussations are not to be taken lightly.

With that experience in mind, I would be a huge fool to closely work with people I couldn't 100% vouch for, on projects that I actually have a real personal stake in. (You know which one)

Personally I didn't have any negative interactions with ZDF moderation/admin staff but I am not an active member. However, those who are, and I feel are trustworthy, have brought to light many transgressions. I have learned this is not the first case a disagreement has been silenced, usually under the guise of combating spam or trolling, but now, an accusement of bigotry has been called, which I see as something very serious, especially against a person I have not a single doubt about their character.

After being a part of some communities where actual bigotry was left unmoderated under the guise of "free speech" (which ended up alienating or driving out the sensible members of such community, myself included), I was happy that ZDF doesn't do this, and people who could be suspect to disrespect or abuse in other places don't have to deal with it here. But the way this whole situation has been dealt with, for me looks like an attempt at "trying to wait until the situation blows over", or in the worst case, a cover-up, not an attempt at protecting someone who actually needs protection. I hope the accusation against Pillowblaster only comes from a misunderstanding (his post was meant to criticise the phenonemon described above in general), but if it's used to actually silence his discontent, that's just hostile and very mean spirited in my book, given how damaging it can be to both personal and professional life.

Seeing so many important members leaving, ghosting or just being outright banned is a huge red flag for me. Still, I believe in this community, and I hope people that are responsible for creating and escalating this situation aren't above admitting their mistakes and fixing them.

[Caligari87]

I'm going to investigate the ban on Pillowblaster. I can see why it was handed down, because it sounded like he was equating these kinds of community leadership kerfuffles, with being trans (or otherwise gender-queer). I don't really like the subtext implications there, but I'm willing to consider that it wasn't meant maliciously or as bigotry. Give me some time though. things are busy now.

[cyber_cool]

PillowBlaster has been banned. He worded his post too emotionally and in a way that can be misinterpreted. But I know him for years, and with certainity I can say he is not a bigot.

His point was a bit too aggressive, but I agree. It got moved so quickly most people haven't read it in this thread.
What's more concerning is that forum staff is busy with issuing warnings/bans and removing posts rather than giving a response to this whole situation. Only Cali has been cooperative, but I assume he doesn't have many permissions (or mods on his side) to take action right now. Weasel or Rachael have been quiet the whole time. No wonder why.

[Graf Zahl]

I believe Rachael should step down from moderation.

• Rachael, I've not been a fan of your moderation style for a long time. At first I thought you were just very strong-willed and passionate. Which is true and fine, but it's also become clear to me over the past few years on the team that you're somewhat vindictive and paranoid. The majority of your policy decisions stem from a place of "circling the wagons" and shoring up defenses against some hypothetical horde of bad actors who are constantly trying to undermine, infiltrate, and destroy us. That's probably true, but not nearly to the extent that you treat it as.

I hate to say it but I have to agree here. I have been quite dissatisfied with the staff here for quite some time. Yes, I noticed the frequent harsh responses Rachael dealt out and that the overall moderation has become increasingly authoritarian, but I also knew that with the status quo as of a month ago it would have been futile to do something about it.

Yes, something needs to be done. Yes, some people have to vacate their posts, otherwise things will only get worse.

Nevertheless, the toxicity on display by some people in this thread is something I find equally troubling. Several people here do not seem to seek an acceptable resolution but are out for blood. No, you won't get any good outcome doing that - all this will cause is the total disintegration of this forum, and if that happens, the damage will go well beyond ousting some unpopular moderators.

[Xtyfe]

Moving forward, I would like to also publicly advocate that we start holding regular (yearly?) moderator and community guide "elections". I don't know what form this will take, but probably something where users can suggest people to be considered as moderators, and also show confidence/no confidence in the current moderation staff. Ideally, I'd like to see a "rotating" system where people can cycle on and off the team periodically with no ill will, as internet community management is by nature an isolating and stressful experience. I'd also like to see the admin team in general take a step back from day-to-day moderation, and trust those operations to community moderators and guides who are "in the trenches" rather than "on the tower." Our position as de-facto "dictators" (in terms of required top-level site management) doesn't mean we have to act like dictators.

I think this is a great first step. It will allow for community oversight and engagement, fresh eyes as well as provide the current roster with a much-needed break. Hopefully, this will allow some form of healing to occur. I wonder if it might be wise to review previous bans as well? Some of them as far as I am aware were not totally justified. PillowBlaster is a recent example as was just mentioned.

[Caligari87]

His point was a bit too aggressive, but I agree. It got moved so quickly most people haven't read it in this thread.
What's more concerning is that forum staff is busy with issuing warnings/bans and removing posts rather than giving a response to this whole situation. Only Cali has been cooperative, but I assume he doesn't have many permissions (or mods on his side) to take action right now. Weasel or Rachael have been quiet the whole time. No wonder why.

I have full admin permissions, for everything except moderating other admins. For what it's worth, there actually have not been "that many" removals or bans as a result of this thread. I'd have to review logs but I'm pretty sure it's less than five people affected and IIRC most of them were for a decently justifiable reason and no posts have been "shadow-removed" to my knowledge, only split to the Hall.

Just to temper expectations, I'm currently at work with a big project so my engagement here is limited. I've already burned dozens of hours of client time obsessively refreshing this page, and I need to stop doing that, so if I dip for a while don't assume the worst.

[Funky Gnoll]

so marisa's not only a pedophile but also has a history of sexually harassing forum members? and the moderation team tried to cover for her?

yeah I think anger is justified here. y'all don't get to complain that nobody trusts you anymore after pulling a stunt like that.

fucking ashamed to be part of this community right now

[Hellser]

What's more concerning is that forum staff is busy with issuing warnings/bans and removing posts rather than giving a response to this whole situation. Only Cali has been cooperative, but I assume he doesn't have many permissions (or mods on his side) to take action right now. Weasel or Rachael have been quiet the whole time. No wonder why.

Please don't assume that the entire staff is attempting to silence, issue warnings and/or bans.

[Scripten]

Pillowblaster's post may not have been a justifiable reason for a full ban, but the post absolutely crossed lines in terms of being an acceptable part of this discussion and definitely had airs of bigotry, or at least of being tolerant of bigotry. The last thing I personally would want to see is a move toward a culture like the doomer boards, which are absolutely a cesspit, or a regression to the days of people throwing slurs around. As for the arguments that there's more freedom of expression there, let me remind folks that the person who made the largest accusation against Marisa were themselves victimizing children in the process.

I'm on board with Cali's thoughts. I think they're reasonable and thoughtful, without invoking the punitive "justice" that seeks to harm people for their wrongs (speaking exclusively about the admin/mod team here). To my mind, nobody needs to be "struck down" or penalized beyond what's already happened, save for perhaps legal authorities being alerted for the multiple predators involved in the inciting incident. A change in leadership is acceptable, alongside a move to a more transparent, and possibly egalitarian, format for moderation. Moderation being a temporary duty for established, active forum members, as opposed to a privilege for connections to the current staff, would go a long way to establishing trust, agreed.

so marisa's not only a pedophile but also has a history of sexually harassing forum members? and the moderation team tried to cover for her?

yeah I think anger is justified here. y'all don't get to complain that nobody trusts you anymore after pulling a stunt like that.

fucking ashamed to be part of this community right now

Personal responses from some of the team dismissed or victim blamed the folks who were being harrassed, but Marisa was banned with a (mistaken) presumption of innocence. The lapse in judgement among most of the staff was not releasing the information due to that presumption and in pushing for other communities to do the same, not attempting to cover for her once the proof became incontrovertible. So there's nuance to the situation that goes beyond "the staff protected an accused predator", but agreed in that most of the anger is nonetheless justified.