Changes In Forum Administration

[Redneckerz]

This will be the only post I make regarding this subject, and probably the last post I make here as I no longer wish to be associated with this community.

Yet a second post had to be made when Cali addressed you, so yeah. If you no longer wish to be associated by this community, why post a (understandable) rant and then close the door?

Don't get me wrong, i get the sentiment shared - But you are sharing this around the moment people accepted this situation for what it is and consequences have been handed out. For you to then post what you did isn't contributive, but rather puts the accused back on blast. Emotions and tensions ran and run high, but i don't feel putting Cali on the barbecue is equally deserved. What would be a better solution? Kicking everybody out? The infrastructure would be in jeopardy.

The "probationary period" where the staff were waiting to hear her side was, frankly, an excuse to look for a reason not to ban her.

I ain't buying this. In a situation as precarious as Marisa, sexual accusations carry (or well, they used to) a significant weight. Would you be better off throwing someone immediately under the bus based on a suspicion, or would you be better off if taken under serious consideration before pulling action? All in all, its easy to throw out how you or anyone else would have handled things if you had to handle them. But fact of the matter is, you didn't. You didn't had to handle it - They did.

There is also the legality at play here - The age difference can and is legal in several countries. That doesn't justify every and other action - But it does mean that, shock and awe, you have to consider several things before continuing through - Instead of an instant blowback.

I feel you are taking this very emotionally to a state where nuance is out of the door. I mean, you are literally saying you don't really give a shit how your post comes across. I don't believe that's right. And if you think that by me saying this is somehow defending things, you would be mistaken.

No amount of apologizing and "I promise I'll do better next time" will fix this.

So nobody is allowed a shot at self-improvement - The very thing that makes humans, well, humans. Reading your posts you make the staff out to be monsters.

You will never be able to create the safe space this community deserves when you go around openly admitting you have no idea what you're doing and listening to a bunch of internet randos who have zero connection to anything happening.

I agree with the part that a lot of folks come in here with strong opinions on the matter, and consistently so, when their activity is usually relegated to lurking, instead of participating. Why does it take an event like this to come out of the woodwork and spark a discussion, yet any regular discussion thread sees no activity?

Whilst the frustration is real and understandable, its better to move on. This shouldn't have happened, and it should never happen again.

[DoomKrakken]

You need to take into consideration that all moderation evolves a fair amount of judgement call of what you think the intent of the submitter was. It is a job where you can't just ask the one posting because that takes a long time and bad actors generally try to fuck with you with the untruthful answer they will give.

This is why one moderator might reach the conclusion something seemed transphobic while another one felt maybe that wasn't the intent.

You're absolutely right!

That's exactly what I took into consideration. This is why, in my role as moderator for my servers, I evaluate every situation brought to my attention on a case-by-case basis, and invite and encourage my fellow moderators to do the same, whilst also discouraging unilateral action. This is also why I encourage my moderators to speak up about any problems they've encountered and any decisions they've made in our private channels.

I will admit, there were times when unilateral action taken by a moderator was absolutely necessary for solving a problem, and so I would commend said moderator for that. I will also admit that my moderators can sometimes make bad decisions, which I would then have to reverse, and then admonish said moderator for that. Through it all, it's not just judgment calls being made, it's also the evolution of our decision-making process to administer better judgments in the future.

Oftentimes people can be misunderstood, with their intent being different from the words they spoke. It's frustrating and it's unfair when people try to express themselves but are misunderstood (either unintentionally or even intentionally) at every turn and thus can't make their thoughts known. As a man who is chronically misunderstood, I've struggled and continued to struggle to be understood, to speak clearly and effectively, to make my inner thoughts known... and at the same time, have extended that grace to others because I realize of course I'm not the only one who struggles with this.

No, I am pointing out the double standard you are showing here, i.e. condemn the bad actions you disprove of but shrug it off when it's "mere" verbal assault that doesn't further the main argument.
Do you know how many people get emotionally hurt by these things? It's a lot more than some people seem to think. Words can often be the strongest weapons an opponent can wield.

Well for starters, I don't believe PillowBlaster was engaging in verbal assault, nor did he mean to do so. He was blunt and crass but he had a point to make and he did it. Could it have been made more gracefully? Sure, I guess. The fact of the matter, though, is that he had a good point to make, even if he worded it in a way that didn't sit right with people.

Not to put words in his mouth or intent in his head, but it's even possible he was intentionally inflammatory because that'd really turn heads and really highlight the anger and frustration he couldn't otherwise put into words (I acknowledge the possibility only because that's something I'd do for sure). I digress, however...

I do not condemn harsh language when there's a point to be made, a truth to be revealed. The same cannot be said about sexual advances, especially those concerning pedophilia.

[Graf Zahl]

Not to put words in his mouth or intent in his head, but it's even possible he was intentionally inflammatory because that'd really turn heads and really highlight the anger and frustration he couldn't otherwise put into words (I acknowledge the possibility only because that's something I'd do for sure). I digress, however...

I do not condemn harsh language when there's a point to be made, a truth to be revealed. The same cannot be said about sexual advances, especially those concerning pedophilia.

If you want to make a point, choose language that does not offend others. Otherwise your point won't get registered because it gets overshadowed by overstepping a boundary. He could have made that point better by choosing his words more carefully. Otherwise it's impossible to determine if there's a real point being made or just some bluster of a Donald Trump wannabe - and the latter will fall into the realm of insult by default.

[Xim]

Sorry to come in so late, but I've been here for a while so I kind of feel like saying something. This whole thing is very surprising and has been quite a read for me after my work shift.

But at the end of it all, all I can really say is: Best of luck to you Caligari87! As I said earlier, I've been here for a while too and I don't want to see this place go under either. I'm glad there is still hope for the site!

[dpJudas]

I do not condemn harsh language when there's a point to be made, a truth to be revealed.

Even if there is a point it can still be verbal abuse. Verbal abuse may not be pedophilia, but that does not make it OK. Was the offensive language on purpose? Was the receiver overly sensitive? That's basically up to the moderator to figure out and decide. This is why you can have one moderator think it should be a ban, while another might think it was within the rules.

You can make the argument that the old administrators were perhaps bit too quick to ban or shut down some conversations, but make no mistake - if everyone is allowed to talk as harsh as they'd like as long as they think there's just a hint of a point to be made then I'm sure as hell not going to stay.

[dawnbreez]

I do not condemn harsh language when there's a point to be made, a truth to be revealed. The same cannot be said about sexual advances, especially those concerning pedophilia.

Conspiracy-theory bullshit isn't "a truth to be revealed". Even if we ran by your own standards, PB's post is still unacceptable.

[SanyaWaffles]

I agree with Graf that words do matter and judas that talking harshly and viciously isn't okay. Me saying moderator conduct should be less inflammatory does not mean I support people doing anything from vicious, harsh language to full on hate speech. It's a two way street.

I'll be direct, I've had enough seeing this iterated over and over again and it's quickly becoming a pancakes vs waffles thing - and part of me feels that this is being done on purpose.

Any reasonable person can see PB's post was inflammatory, intentionally or in a fit of rage saying shit that isn't fly.

He got a warning and was told to not do that again. He didn't get off scott free, and I'm tired of people acting as such. If he does do it again, he'll probably get banned.

It feels I'm one of the few people trying to actually try to offer some sort of constructive feedback that isn't reliant on a single person's actions. If this keeps up, I'm out of this discussion - because this isn't a discussion.

[TiberiumSoul]

*Casually sitting here munching on extra buttery popcorn*

My shitty sense humor aside though, I wish you the best of luck on this Cali!

[Hellser]

Alright, I've let this go on for way longer than it should because I wanted to give people a chance to work out their feelings. It's clear that's not going to happen, and things are devolving into insults.

PillowBlaster has been given a second chance. It's not some anti-trans conspiracy, nor a lack of understanding about how words can offend. It was a moderation decision by me, because I believe a warning for a first offense is usually more appropriate. Of course, is kinda moot because I think given this whole debate he's probably leaving anyway....

Unless something new about PB's behavior comes to light, that topic is closed, and continuing it will result in a warning. If you have concerns, you may PM me directly.

Discussion on PillowBlaster is a closed topic, people. SanyaWaffles is right, this is no longer a discussion. It's turning into a back-and-forth argument with no side yielding.

[Zhs2]

If you want to make a point, choose language that does not offend others. Otherwise your point won't get registered because it gets overshadowed by overstepping a boundary. He could have made that point better by choosing his words more carefully. Otherwise it's impossible to determine if there's a real point being made or just some bluster of a Donald Trump wannabe - and the latter will fall into the realm of insult by default.

I just wanna take a moment to step into this thread and laugh a little at this. Dismissal of this magnitude is pretty much the entire core point of Pillow's post, and why it's so ridiculous it immediately got labeled and binned. Sure, you can argue he must choose better language. Sure, you might infer some personally unacceptable facts from his words. That is, however, the real trap - and the symptom you see here in Graf's post of the overarching problem: to immediately disregard real criticism the moment your brain trips over rhetoric you've been trained to deny. (Worse, you start throwing out buzzwords in response like "conspiracy theory" and "Donald Trump".) Anyway, I'm not trying to defend Pillow or be an apologist or say one way or the other whether anyone's a bigot or not. The real bullshit is the proverbial eggshells he mentioned and upon which he trod - suddenly he wasn't allowed to criticize those whom may be using their status quo as a shield, and he must be definitely nowhere near the first person this has happened to given how he describes others who have felt this way. And you wonder why many people came out now, right after everything started exploding at the seams, left and right, to start laying down grievances about the state of moderation, verified or not, under the statute of limitations or not - wishing away the disagreeable but also in power was no longer a game of dodging eggshells (and at the height of it, banhammers, given the popularity of the banned.) That's my two cents anyway, and I agree arguing about Pillow's post is getting pretty done and dusty. I just hate seeing the underlying message missed in high ironic fashion.

[mjr4077au]

I just wanna take a moment to step into this thread and laugh a little at this. Dismissal of this magnitude is pretty much the entire core point of Pillow's post, and why it's so ridiculous it immediately got labeled and binned. Sure, you can argue he must choose better language. Sure, you might infer some personally unacceptable facts from his words. That is, however, the real trap - and the symptom you see here in Graf's post of the overarching problem: to immediately disregard real criticism the moment your brain trips over rhetoric you've been trained to deny. (Worse, you start throwing out buzzwords in response like "conspiracy theory" and "Donald Trump".) Anyway, I'm not trying to defend Pillow or be an apologist or say one way or the other whether anyone's a bigot or not. The real bullshit is the proverbial eggshells he mentioned and upon which he trod - suddenly he wasn't allowed to criticize those whom may be using their status quo as a shield, and he must be definitely nowhere near the first person this has happened to given how he describes others who have felt this way. And you wonder why many people came out now, right after everything started exploding at the seams, left and right, to start laying down grievances about the state of moderation, verified or not, under the statute of limitations or not - wishing away the disagreeable but also in power was no longer a game of dodging eggshells (and at the height of it, banhammers, given the popularity of the banned.) That's my two cents anyway, and I agree arguing about Pillow's post is getting pretty done and dusty. I just hate seeing the underlying message missed in high ironic fashion.

Say someone came up to you in the shopping centre carpark and said either "I think you're a cunt because didn't put your shopping trolley back in the bay", or "I think its disrespectful to other shoppers that you didn't put your shopping trolley back in the bay". The former is going to have you seeing red for being called that and might even cause fists to be thrown, whereas the latter would at least start a conversation or debate. Both make the same point, but you're going to be so caught up by being called a cunt in the former that you're not even going to think about the shopping trolley at that point.

[Caligari87]

Locking topic for the next 36-ish hours because apparently no one can take a hint and stop arguing. I wouldn't mind a debate if it actually went anywhere or resulted in useful things we can do about it, but no one seems interested in budging and just keeps making the same points but angrier.

Again, if you have actionable concerns on this particular issue, DM me. Otherwise, take a breather and focus on something else for a minute.

Next on my docket is drafting up a thread for getting some community input on moderators, current rules, and future improvements. I hope to get that posted tomorrow when I have some time.

EDIT: Just so it's clear I'm not dismissing these concerns, I'm also going to take this time to review this debate in detail and see what moderation policies may need to be adjusted or implemented. This is obviously something that hits close to home. I'll make a follow-up post here on that subject.

[Woolie Wool]

I heard about this yesterday on Something Awful, along with a link to Marty Kirra's video. I don't post here very often anymore, but I have a lot of memories of this place, and hearing about how the old admins and mods rallied around Marisa and against anyone who tried to blow the whistle on her is deeply upsetting. Especially considering wildweasel was part of it, someone whom, like Marty, I once considered a friend and worked with on certain mods (I contributed to ww-nazis, he contributed to Mutiny 2 and Ballistics). Especially galling was how he, Rachael, and the other ousted leaders insisted on making the incident about themselves, wanting to "deal with it" in a way that they did not have to make any hard choices or sacrifices, nor consider how they got to the point of having a known child predator among their admin staff. The whole incident could be taught to trainee community managers as a case study in exactly how not to manage a crisis, everything that could have been done wrong was done wrong, and the whole attitude of the old staff towards their jobs seemed like one of complacent entitlement and a perceived right of seniority. Rachael's behavior hurt me less than weasel's, as I didn't interact with her much, though I had heard negative rumors about her from other Doom communities (guess they were true!).

I had just set up LZDoom and SLADE on my new Arch Linux install to continue work on Mutiny 4, too, and seeing what would have been my principal venue for community interaction do this has been bitterly disappointing and demoralizing. I will probably check back in now and then to see what is going on and how the new staff are running things, but I don't see myself returning here in earnest, not for now.

[Major Cooke]

I for one am not going to let this deter me from continuing my work with (G)ZDoom in the slightest, nor with the community.

ZDoom's my home. Through thick and thin. I've been through many communities that have all eventually died out because of nuclear levels of diarrhea-inducing events.

I don't have a horse in this race about what the Hell happened and why all holy Hell broke out but when shit hits the ceiling, someone has to help clean it off. I love ZDoom too much, and I'm not going to sit idly by if there's something that can be done on my end.

If you need some extra help, let me know, Cali.

[Wiw]

I don't know what to say. I've been a member for 8 years and in all my time of being one I have never seen a disaster on this scale. I didn't even know about it until today, right when I'm in the middle of a low patch, and it's just... I turn my back for one second and all hell breaks loose!

I'll say it right here, and right now: it's obvious that what we wanted or deserved came much too late, so it's high time to move on. ZDoom has died.