Changes In Forum Administration

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dawnbreez
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Re: Changes In Forum Administration

Post by dawnbreez »

cyber_cool wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:13 pm
dawnbreez wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 3:48 pm So this got me curious, and I went to actually look at PB's post, and...yeah, this is exactly the kinda shit I was worried about. Framing the situation as "If this wasn't an 'inclusive space', this wouldn't have happened" is exactly the thing I'm worried about--because it takes Marisa's individual actions, and spins it up into "This is because we let trans people be here at all" instead of, y'know, an individual doing shit she really shouldn't have.
PB expressed a valid concern, which shouldn't be repeated in the future. It's not about trans people being here at all, it's about staff members mostly consisting of trans people, which is, you know, quite unusual and raises some questions. They are called "minority" for a reason.
I am not putting all the blame on the former mod team for handling the situtaion, shit happens. But it's like holding an international sports event and have all judges being from the same country that also participates. It's impossible for them not to be biased. Same thing happened here.
dawnbreez wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 3:48 pm This is not "holding people accountable", despite what Pillowblaster claimed it was. It's the opposite of holding people accountable. It's ignoring the actual, real, Very Fucking Bad crimes of one person--because they got in an accusation first, and because the accusation was against someone whose presence makes this an Inclusive Space.
You know, I find this hard to agree with, because the whole point of PBs post was that the actual crimes were getting ignored for quite some time BECAUSE Marisa's accusers were getting, in their turn, accused of bigotry and trying to attack her gender identity, while they were getting at an actual act of sexual harassment.
Graf Zahl wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 3:16 pm That's completely irrelevant. Whatever he was trying to say (yes, I freely admit that I had difficulties getting to the actual point of that diatribe) was presented in a manner that at least some people considered extremely offensive. The post made it very hard to get to the essence but made it very easy to piss people off. It's the presentation that matters here, not the presumed content.
It will sound stupid to most people, but let me say that: don't get offended. You may completely disagree with the post in question, but it's far from a direct attack on somebody or a group of people. It's just talking about state of things as they are. It's harshly worded, but you can't be all polite and tolerant all the time. If you wanna make your point, you will not write "sorry for accusing you of this, sorry for implying that you did something wrong, I have nothing against this group of people" a thousand times. You will either get straight to the point or don't write anything at all.
Even if "the moderation team is mostly trans people so they must be biased" is what PB meant, that's still...look, it's nearly impossible for humans to not be biased in general but the solution to this is not to purge all the trans people from the moderation team.

Also--you bring up past accusations of sexual harassment. And if there was sexual harassment in the past, I would like to hear about it, so I may form a more complete picture of what happened. What I suspect, based on the conversation so far, is that you don't have any proof, just "she's trans and the moderators were trans, so they must be hiding something".

More importantly: You'll notice we're still focusing on what Marisa did. The conversation keeps sliding away from the thing that came up in the logs Marisa posted--the part where the accuser was distributing CSAM. If the accountability is what you care about, the accuser should be just as big a deal as Marisa--if not more important, because, even if we assume the accuser only got nudes from one twelve-year-old, they're still doing something far worse than what Marisa did. If this was about accountability we would have already settled most of this, because banning both of them would have been the obvious course of action, given the assumption that the logs Marisa provided were true. But, instead, we're talking about how important it is that the trans members of the moderation team be blamed for not banning Marisa fast enough, and that we should reduce the number of trans people on the moderation team because they're obviously biased, and not a single word is spared for the person who apparently had been grooming 12-year-olds in between making accusations of grooming...because this isn't about accountability at all, is it?
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Eric_
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Re: Changes In Forum Administration

Post by Eric_ »

dawnbreez wrote:And if there was sexual harassment in the past, I would like to hear about it, so I may form a more complete picture of what happened.
Read the statement from TerminusEst13 that I posted in the previous thread.
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Ihavequestions
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Re: Changes In Forum Administration

Post by Ihavequestions »

Graf Zahl wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 3:16 pm[...] was presented in a manner that at least some people considered extremely offensive [...]
As a general remark, learning not to get easily offended is an important part of growing up and becoming an adult. One-sided pandering to drama queens does not help that, it does not help their personal development, instead only worsening it all by giving them a feeling that they can continue playing Karen forever.
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dawnbreez
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Re: Changes In Forum Administration

Post by dawnbreez »

Eric_ wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:38 pm
dawnbreez wrote:And if there was sexual harassment in the past, I would like to hear about it, so I may form a more complete picture of what happened.
Read the statement from TerminusEst13 that I posted in the previous thread.
Two things stand out to me:
1. I trust Terminus, but--the phrase of the day is "trust but verify". I would like to see logs, clips, screencaps--something that at least sort-of-proves what happened. (Screencaps can theoretically be faked, but...look, we'd be here all day if we tried to rule out every possible fake screencap. This is the best standard of proof we're getting without a warrant.)
2. There's a difference between harassment via flirting well past the point of comfort, and child grooming. There are varying degrees of harassment, too. I do not mean to insult Terminus or make it sound like he's overreacting--I've been harassed in the past, and I know how threatening something as simple as an arm around the shoulder can be with the context surrounding it. This is part of why I want evidence--so that we can gauge what happened, for how long, and how bad it is.

Until we get more info from Terminus, I can't say whether Marisa should've been banned years ago, or if there was a yearslong pattern of behavior being ignored. Strictly speaking, we can't even say for certain that it happened--though I do trust Terminus, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask for evidence.
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dawnbreez
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Re: Changes In Forum Administration

Post by dawnbreez »

Ihavequestions wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:57 pm
Graf Zahl wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 3:16 pm[...] was presented in a manner that at least some people considered extremely offensive [...]
As a general remark, learning not to get easily offended is an important part of growing up and becoming an adult. One-sided pandering to drama queens does not help that, it does not help their personal development, instead only worsening it all by giving them a feeling that they can continue playing Karen forever.
I'm gonna be blunt, here: This isn't a "just don't get offended" situation. The thing that pushes PB's post over the edge from "foul-mouthed" to "you shouldn't have posted that" is the part where he's implying that there's some conspiracy of trans people to avoid consequences (which, again, is really ironic, because PB's post only focuses on consequences for one bad actor in this situation).
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Eric_
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Re: Changes In Forum Administration

Post by Eric_ »

You are quite frankly a moron acting on impulse without having a full understanding of the situation. Stop wasting posts on your uninformed handwringing and start reading what's already been posted.
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BROS_ETT_311
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Re: Changes In Forum Administration

Post by BROS_ETT_311 »

Eric_ wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 5:08 pm You are quite frankly a moron acting on impulse without having a full understanding of the situation. Stop wasting posts on your uninformed handwringing and start reading what's already been posted.
Let's slow down a sec. I get the frustration, but no need for ad-hom. That said -
dawnbreez wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:35 pm
Sorry @Dawnbreez, but I'm starting to get the impression that you're just not ready to engage with this matter in good faith. Each subsequent post you've been making has been teetering just next to trying to imply that the people raising their concerns are merely part of some anti-trans mob.

While there may be some of those who almost certainly have that intent, they are without a shadow of a doubt very far from the majority. Every terrible thing that has occurred within the context of this discussion has indeed been condemned. I'll even go as far as to layout these stances myself, which I'm even as confident to say that no one will disagree with:

1. Marisa's actions - BAD
2. actions of the accuser - BAD
3. moderation's handling of the situation - BAD
4. purging trans people from the community/moderation - BAD
5. inviting bigotry - BAD

I implore you to please, PLEASE, read the entirety of both this thread and the [Statement Regarding Marisa] thread. viewtopic.php?t=77488&start=90

I know, it's a daunting amount of material and a lot of it can be tricky to navigate, but if you truly want to grant yourself an informed opinion (which you've expressed you're having trouble doing) then that is at the very least the start of the process.

Ultimately, there's already a much needed restructuring of the forums that is in progress. Try to understand why that is happening, because that's what this thread is about.
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Caligari87
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Re: Changes In Forum Administration

Post by Caligari87 »

I think it's time to drop the bigotry discussion, please. At this point there's nothing to be gained. PB is aware how his post was interpreted, regardless of intent, and has committed to be more thoughtful before posting in the future. He has assured me he meant no ill will, and I believe him. If it happens again then it'll be a problem, but we'll cross that bridge if we come to it.

Continuing to harp on the issue is just going to perpetuate the cycle of offense far beyond what is constructive. Let's move on. If anyone should wish to keep discussing, please do it in PMs.

8-)
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dawnbreez
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Re: Changes In Forum Administration

Post by dawnbreez »

BROS_ETT_311 wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 5:11 pm [snip]
I'm teetering toward "there's an anti-trans hate mob" because, frankly, that's what I'm concerned about. This whole situation sits in a broader context, and that broader context is that certain very loud, very angry political groups have been endangering children in the name of attacking trans people for "endangering" children. I agree that Marisa fucked up--the part that has me worried is the part where Hellser (a moderator, according to his forum profile) has stated that he agrees with PB's take on the situation, which outright ignores the fucked-up things that the accuser did in favor of claiming that there's been some grand years-long effort by the mostly-trans moderator team to "blindly defend" trans people from consequences, as PB put it.

If Terminus's account is substantiated: That's fucked up! Depending on how much is substantiated and how long it went on, that's really fucked up, and it may even show that the moderation team covered Marisa's ass far more than they should have. Until then, or until someone else comes forward with proof that Marisa harassed people and got away with it because of the old moderation team, what we have here is someone saying "this situation would not be" (PB's words) and a member of the current moderation team saying "no, PB's post was acceptable, banning PB was unjustified".

I am gonna try to dig through the old thread, but--look, this thread is for voicing concerns about the new forum administration team, right? This is my concern. Cali seems trustworthy, but Cali's not the only member of the moderation team. It'd be one thing if it was just random users playing the "it's because the moderators were all trans" card, but when a moderator chimes in with all but "I agree", I can't ignore that.
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Re: Changes In Forum Administration

Post by Hellser »

I speak for myself so you know. The news that was dumped by Marty and everyone else is still news to me. I too, am trying to figure out what's going on. I myself am trying to be a transparent as I can. My feelings on PB's ban is that of my own feelings. :shrug:

But Cali is right. We need to start focusing on the current administration and to look forward to keeping the community safe.
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dawnbreez
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Re: Changes In Forum Administration

Post by dawnbreez »

Hellser wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 5:41 pm I speak for myself so you know. The news that was dumped by Marty and everyone else is still news to me. I too, am trying to figure out what's going on. I myself am trying to be a transparent as I can. My feelings on PB's ban is that of my own feelings. :shrug:
Unfortunately, according to your user profile, you're a global moderator. Your opinions may be your own, but they're the opinions of someone who carries a banhammer.
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Re: Changes In Forum Administration

Post by Cardboard Marty »

Given how this whole thing started, I think it's only fair to weigh in here with my thoughts. I'm really optimistic about the future of the forum in regard to how Caligari has responded to the various things that have been brought up throughout the week. The approach that I've seen here has been something I definitely feel has been missing for a long time, even for someone like me who is (believe it or not) usually pretty low-key when things like this popup. I hope that the changes being made here build a better future for the forums and a stronger community altogether. Only time will tell, but we're headed in a good direction so far. I'll be keeping an eye on things and wishing for the best, I want this to be a place that I want to return to and be a part of.

Best of luck Caligari and the rest of the moderation team.
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Caligari87
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Re: Changes In Forum Administration

Post by Caligari87 »

dawnbreez wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 5:43 pmUnfortunately, according to your user profile, you're a global moderator. Your opinions may be your own, but they're the opinions of someone who carries a banhammer.
Dawn, please slow down.

Is there an anti-trans hate mob? [Imagine I'm gesturing generally at the world] Yes. That is a real thing. Is Marisa's situation the result of entrapment by said mob? Maybe. Doesn't change the fact that she took the bait and that's why she's gone. Is said mob currently attacking the forums and trying to gain a foothold? Not if I have anything to say about it. If there's some fear that I'm suddenly going to be soft on bigotry, I want to put that notion to bed right now.

I don't want paranoia to take over this discussion. I'm not transphobic. I'm pretty sure Hellser isn't either. I don't believe PB was intentionally dog-whistling (poor choice of phrase notwithstanding). Quibbling over this is getting us nowhere, and I don't think combing further through backlogs to try and divine some subversive subtext is a productive use of our time.

If there's something actionable that someone needs from me in order to feel safe here, let me know what it is and I'll do my best.

8-)
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dawnbreez
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Re: Changes In Forum Administration

Post by dawnbreez »

Caligari87 wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 5:54 pm [snip]
I appreciate your post. I hope you understand why I'm still apprehensive. I'll drop the subject, per your request--I've already made it clear why I'm nervous, anyway.
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Caligari87
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Re: Changes In Forum Administration

Post by Caligari87 »

I understand the nerves, and I'll take your concern seriously. If something comes up, feel free to DM me.

8-)

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