AMD (Windows) OpenGL is deprecated and will no longer be maintained [split]

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Darkcrafter
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AMD (Windows) OpenGL is deprecated and will no longer be maintained [split]

Post by Darkcrafter »

It's not only OpenGL that has been treated this way, almost every AI toolset out there works only with CUDA which AMD doesn't support and will not ever. It's like saying to users: give me your money and F you, amusing to see some clever people claiming this cards are good for work. They won't even let you work.

No more AMD graphics cards for me.
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Re: AMD (Windows) OpenGL is deprecated and will no longer be maintained

Post by Rachael »

The reason why AMD won't support CUDA is simple: It's an nVidia product. They probably do not want to deal with licensing such a thing and I don't blame them, that's not a reason to boycott their products.

AMD sure has many problems but I don't count that among them. I chalk that one up to "fuck nVidia." And personally I agree with them on that one.
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Re: AMD (Windows) OpenGL is deprecated and will no longer be maintained

Post by Darkcrafter »

Of course if nVidia funds AI development globally and AMD does not, then it's entirely their fault OpenCL is not that widespread because we live in such a world where money matter. The worst thing about AMD recently is that it doesn't push the technology forward anymore, like their raytracing support was added after RTX came out and it was still a filler "checkbox" feature. Also those weird driver issues, is it like a company that rich can't afford to hire good software development team for years?

It makes for an impression to me that the entire AMD company is a branch on nVidia advertising it secretely so in the end of the day everyone would treat nVidia products for milestone.

Also I hate the fact how they ditched us all the first gen ryzen owners with "it's for for games" marketing and it was really really bad CPU until late 2018 UEFI update, I had to update it for 3 times in a row praying for power to stay on just to stop audio drop outs in the browser. It also fixed their Hyper-Threading making it finally work much better in single-core software, until then it was 15% lose of performance when SMT on.

It's just not my user related problem to pay them as much if not more than nVidia/Intel for their products to make them work as intended.

Only 4/5th gen Ryzen was polished enough to get into customer hands.
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Re: AMD (Windows) OpenGL is deprecated and will no longer be maintained

Post by Rachael »

That was a "we're not fixing OpenGL bugs on AMD" thread, not a "shit on AMD" thread. Splitting off all this nonsense.
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Chris
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Re: AMD (Windows) OpenGL is deprecated and will no longer be maintained

Post by Chris »

Darkcrafter wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:08 am The worst thing about AMD recently is that it doesn't push the technology forward anymore, like their raytracing support was added after RTX came out and it was still a filler "checkbox" feature.
There's more to graphics technology to push than raytracing. AMD have done things like InfinityCache and SAM, they've been working on ways to have the CPU and GPU work together to improve performance of various operations, and are also running GPU Open, which includes various tools, documentation, talks, etc, relating to GPU programing. They've also developed FSR 1, 2, and soon 3, spatial and temporal upscalers that are designed to work across a wide range of GPU hardware, including older nVidia cards and Intel's discrete and integrated offerings, with rather good results (unlike DLSS, which while it produces slightly better results, is proprietary and locked to specific hardware). Improving technology for existing devices and/or across different hardware platforms is just as important as technological improvements for your own new hardware.

To say nothing of how AMD is improving their already impressive performance-per-watt metric while also maintaining a reasonable size footprint, which if nVidia's latest offerings are any indication, crazy power consumption and physical size is something important people have to consider. These are technological improvements that AMD is leading on. It's relevant to note, that according to numbers AMD have provided about the new 7900XT(X) cards, people have calculated that rasterization performance will be very close to a 4090 (if not slightly better in some circumstances), at a significantly reduced price, lower power consumption, and smaller form factor. Sure, it won't match it in raytracing performance, but it's not like raytracing will be completely unusable either. But also, that's compared to stock performance; boards focused on overclocking can easily see more improvements as the devices have a lot of potential headroom if you're okay with chugging more power.

Let's also not forget AMD is also working with a new chiplet design for its GPUs, which modularize the internal components of the processor that allows for more customization, and faster design refreshes with less "porting" work for new generations of devices, something they started doing with their CPUs with the Zen architecture but have now brought to their GPUs (which wasn't as simple to accomplish as 'do the same thing but for GPUs', since GPU cores work very differently and have different needs and considerations than CPUs). As monolithic dies get bigger, the performance improvements you can get out of it drop, power consumption and heat increases, and yields get worse (the ratio of the number of working components you get when a group of them are made, as a certain number of failures are inevitable, goes down). These are improvements AMD is pushing heavy on.

AMD has been working on making their devices more efficient and scalable, while nVidia has been brute forcing it with more hardware and power. There are plenty of things AMD is leading on, even if it's not on raw FPS with flashy effects. Whether or not that will give them an advantage in the coming years is yet to be seen, but at least from the few discussions I've seen on it, there is speculation nVidia may be running into a wall with their approach, and they may not be in a position to shift any time soon (i.e. their future 50xx cards may be staying course with monolithic dies and performance-through-power).
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Re: AMD (Windows) OpenGL is deprecated and will no longer be maintained [split]

Post by Graf Zahl »

And yet, they consistently fail on the last mlle, i.e. their Windows driver. I am certain that without that neverending problem they'd be in a much better position.
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Re: AMD (Windows) OpenGL is deprecated and will no longer be maintained [split]

Post by Darkcrafter »

There are indeed things to be grateful for AMD like 4, 6, 8 core CPUs with free multithreading, of course nVidia and Intel would push the same things again and again with small improvements within 5% of range but there are things to dislike AMD for. All the technical inovations and breakthroughs crack of a wall of malfunctions, raw and unproperly tested UEFI, drivers, software incompatibilties and marketing stories about amazing future.

An opinion was voiced their chips ia degrading faster, not sure if this is true.
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Re: AMD (Windows) OpenGL is deprecated and will no longer be maintained [split]

Post by Rachael »

Chris wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:05 am To say nothing of how AMD is improving their already impressive performance-per-watt metric while also maintaining a reasonable size footprint, which if nVidia's latest offerings are any indication, crazy power consumption and physical size is something important people have to consider. These are technological improvements that AMD is leading on. It's relevant to note, that according to numbers AMD have provided about the new 7900XT(X) cards, people have calculated that rasterization performance will be very close to a 4090 (if not slightly better in some circumstances), at a significantly reduced price, lower power consumption, and smaller form factor. Sure, it won't match it in raytracing performance, but it's not like raytracing will be completely unusable either. But also, that's compared to stock performance; boards focused on overclocking can easily see more improvements as the devices have a lot of potential headroom if you're okay with chugging more power.
This, alone, is huge.

I can be critical of AMD all day long but unfortunately, NVidia absolutely dropped the ball here. Not only did they drop the ball, they screwed the pooch.

The RTX 40xx is a perfect example of NVidia skating off of their brand name, alone, and they did a shameful display of it at that. I am not surprised that AMD put up a much more reasonable offering to compete with that. It's not like it was that hard, though, really - NVidia just really really blew it this generation. Maybe they'll do better on the next gen. If you're planning on an RTX 4090, you're likely looking at getting a completely different computer - at the very least a new case, motherboard, cooling system, *and* power supply that can handle everything the RTX 4090 will need from it. A swap-out upgrade just won't cut it for the majority of currently RTX 3080 systems in use today. Hopefully though, they'll offer some better entry-level chips that won't be so cost-prohibitive on both the price and the system upgrade requirements. That isn't to say I doubt that the RTX 4090 will be impressive - I think it will be, and from the things I've been hearing about it, it does really leave you wanting more if you are stuck on a previous gen card. It's just that gaming on it will be an entirely different experience than the experience of installing and maintaining it, which by all accounts looks to be a massive pain in the ass.
Graf Zahl wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:44 am And yet, they consistently fail on the last mlle, i.e. their Windows driver. I am certain that without that neverending problem they'd be in a much better position.
Despite what I said before though, AMD isn't without their faults - and Graf summed it up perfectly. If AMD didn't screw up every last single driver release, somehow, some way, NVidia would be yesterday's news. Or they'd have a really hard time catching up, at least.

Somehow though, AMD and stable driver releases on the most popular OS in the world are like oil and water - they just don't go together.
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Re: AMD (Windows) OpenGL is deprecated and will no longer be maintained [split]

Post by sinisterseed »

Rachael wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:58 pm Maybe they'll do better on the next gen.
Frankly I doubt that if they unironically believe they will actually get away with these prices which are much too steep for most people with the ongoing issues around the world as icing on the cake. AMD's latest top of the line alternative is priced at 899$ MSRP - 100 less than their previous generation, and 600 less than Nvidia's.

I've been reading that in countries such as Poland the price is just absurd - around 2500$. At that point, the money is much better spent elsewhere. If they keep this approach going forward and their "falling prices are a thing of the past" mindset, they'll just cave themselves in. They're gonna get the same wake-up call that AMD gave Intel with Ryzen when they got too lazy and overconfident in getting away with selling consumers crap forever.

For me, that alone basically sets things in stone. I was constantly considering an AMD card going forward even out of pure curiosity and experimenting, however with such an 180 turn from Nvidia, it only managed to solidify my decision, which will not be changing. Next year or the following when I finally upgrade, I'm switching to Team Red. With prices like this and my situation which has been a bit of a rollercoaster again due to lack of demand at work, Nvidia is just entirely out of my league. I guess it's good I can afford losing Nvidia's good OpenGL performance now, it comes at a most opportune time as virtually nothing I depend on makes use of it anymore, thus Nvidia losing its main selling point for me, and choosing them going forward would bring me no benefit whatsoever with such steep prices - which I can't afford to begin with.
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Re: AMD (Windows) OpenGL is deprecated and will no longer be maintained [split]

Post by Hellser »

Having gone Team Red for a few years now, I have noticed some... AMD™ quirks. Hold your breath if you haven't been reading the thread: the drivers hiccups. Sometimes badly, sometimes not. Thank god for Windows automatically recovering video drivers when it crashes. Now, I am not saying it happens every hour or hundreds of times a day. It happens over the course of my using the computer 12+ hours on an off (work) day maybe once or twice. Never has it happened in a game. It seems to always happen when I'm browsing the internet - be it Firefox or Edge - and it usually happens whenever I'm on YouTube. But, like I said. The driver does recover and all runs fine afterwards. This happened with TWO different cards as well - a RX 5500 and my new RX 6600.

I also rarely run anything with OpenGL now-a-days. It's either Vulkan or DirectX. I love AMD's Adrenalin suite over GeForce Experience -- you don't need an account or need to login to anything.

Now, there is the AMD Pro Drivers one could download, which AMD has stated their gaming cards are supported - but these drivers aren't designed for gaming in mind. They use older and "more stable drivers"**. Consider the Adrenalin drivers as "Unstable" and the Beta Adrenalin drivers as "Nightly", if that makes any sense. :D

** = Hellser cannot confirm if Pro Drivers are stable, but rather paraphrasing what AMD has said about their Enterprise/Video Creator/CAD/Am An Artist drivers
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Re: AMD (Windows) OpenGL is deprecated and will no longer be maintained [split]

Post by Rachael »

I pretty much exclusively use Pro drivers whenever possible, nVidia or AMD. If my gaming performance suffers because of it, so be it, I don't care. I can lose a few FPS because stability is far more valuable to me.
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Re: AMD (Windows) OpenGL is deprecated and will no longer be maintained [split]

Post by sinisterseed »

Rachael wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:31 am I pretty much exclusively use Pro drivers whenever possible, nVidia or AMD. If my gaming performance suffers because of it, so be it, I don't care. I can lose a few FPS because stability is far more valuable to me.
Same.

But how big is the performance degradation compared to the more gaming-oriented drivers anyway? To have a better idea when I switch.
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Re: AMD (Windows) OpenGL is deprecated and will no longer be maintained [split]

Post by Rachael »

Not really that much. They're just "out-of-date" drivers, that's about all they are.

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