Knee-Deep in KDiZD: Z1M3 screenshot-whoring brigade (12/14)

[esselfortium]

i'm surprised it's not in web safe colors and they forgot to use the light filter

Me too, since I specifically asked for both of those things. This is the last time I will be dealing with such low-quality cheap labor

[QBasicer]

Right, so why is this not in projects?

[esselfortium]

It's not a ZDoom-specific project (even though it's based on one, and even though the final product should be compatible with ZDoom), so I posted it here to avoid getting yelled at. If this isn't a problem for the Projects forum, it can be moved there.

edit: Thanks Phobus!

[Phobus]

I'll move it there actually, simply because this part of the forums is always temporary.

[Vader]

Heh,
like some other people I first thought this is some sort of joke or mockery.
However reading into the thread a little and considering who started it, made me take it seriously

Anyway, I think this idea is pretty interesting and could turn out to be much fun... so personally I wish you guys good luck and hope for some more screenshots soon!

[esselfortium]

Hey Vader! I was planning to wait a while longer before posting more screenshots, but I can't resist.

Here are a few screenshots I took today, showing a bit of what I've been doing in z1m1 for the past day or two:

Torm's Detail Guide: The Room!™ I lucked out with the floor/ceiling heights of the platforms in this room, and with the placement of the big structure in the middle, in that enough is blocked from the player's view at any given time that I was able to just keep adding more and more stuff without getting VPOs or HOMs. As such, there's a whole bunch of stuff in there that's not really visible in that shot, heh.
(Also note the stimpack rotations on the bottom left.)



KDiKDiZD: Now with Hyperdetail!



Colored lighting! (this picture was taken before I colored the door texture...I opened the door in hopes that it'd be less noticeable, heh...and I need to do something about the compspan being cut off by the floor.)

[Phobus]

This is quite clever actually - dancing with the limits as closely as possible. It'll be sort of lost on ZDoom users though (such as myself) I think...

[esselfortium]

Hehe...speaking of limits, one thing that's going to be troublesome to work around is the limit of 32767 segs (compared to ZDoom's 65535). My z1m1 remake is maybe around 40% done and it's already up to 6000 segs or so. Gigantic maps like z1m3 will probably be initially built as bare-bones as possible, then will be fancied up in a few passes until the limit is reached.

edit: As for it being lost on ZDoom users, I guess that may be true, but I'm hoping we'll be able to create something that, similarly to Espi's Suspended in Dusk, will be impressive regardless of the port it's being played with. (Though I lack the Espi touch. )

[NiGHTMARE]

This project sounds interesting, I look forward to playing it . The screenshots certainly look interesting; I'm particularly interested in seeing what you do with the computer maze in E1M2, since that's probably the largest area in the project that was almost entirely developed by myself.

Two things though: first, pretty much the entire last YEAR of the project's development was focused on improving the gameplay (as well as fixing various bugs). The thing certain people need to realize is that, simply because a mapper doesn't spend months upon months optimizing the gameplay to absolute pefection, making every single location in a map as challenging as humanly possible without being unbeatable (the EXACT types and amounts of monsters in EXACTLY the right spot, the PRECISE amounts and types of ammos in PRECISELY the correct places, etc), it doesn't mean that mapper has spend little or no time on the gameplay at all. (There's nothing wrong with a mapper doing that, of course, but it is wrong to think a map sucks simply because it doesn't have absolutely perfect gameplay.)

Second thing is, you've missed the opportunity for a truly great name: Knee Deep in Vanilla!

By the way, cheers for the article on architecture over on the Skulltag forums. I actually agree with most of the examples used, and in fact would probably have included several more besides (the tank thingy at the very beginning of the first map, for instance, and the place where you pick up the seismic bomb). Who knows, maybe some or all of these things will be addressed...

[esselfortium]

Heh, Nick, you have bizarre timing. Just last night before I went to bed I was wondering if you had seen this thread yet, and when I wake up there you are!

This project sounds interesting, I look forward to playing it . The screenshots certainly look interesting; I'm particularly interested in seeing what you do with the computer maze in E1M2, since that's probably the largest area in the project that was almost entirely developed by myself.

Thanks for your interest! I've got a few ideas in mind for that area, but I'm not sure exactly how it's going to turn out yet since I'm mostly concentrating on z1m1 right now, and since Catoptromancy is (if he actually gets to work on it within the next 10 years) supposed to be doing most of z1m2...

Two things though: first, pretty much the entire last YEAR of the project's development was focused on improving the gameplay (as well as fixing various bugs). The thing certain people need to realize is that, simply because a mapper doesn't spend months upon months optimizing the gameplay to absolute pefection, making every single location in a map as challenging as humanly possible without being unbeatable (the EXACT types and amounts of monsters in EXACTLY the right spot, the PRECISE amounts and types of ammos in PRECISELY the correct places, etc), it doesn't mean that mapper has spend little or no time on the gameplay at all. (There's nothing wrong with a mapper doing that, of course, but it is wrong to think a map sucks simply because it doesn't have absolutely perfect gameplay.)

I don't know about how others feel, but personally my issues with some parts of KDiZD's gameplay were more with the switch hunts that confused the hell out of me, and the keys that seemed to have been placed on the exact opposite end of the map, so that by the time you manage to find it you've forgotten where the door you needed it for was. Some of those will probably be altered a bit here.

As I'm a terrible perfectionist myself, I do worry a bit that I'm going to spend the next 10 years of my life working on this project, adding and removing health bonuses, and moving vertices one unit back and forth.

Second thing is, you've missed the opportunity for a truly great name: Knee Deep in Vanilla!

Knee-Deep in Vanilla Doom = KDiVD = Knee-Deep in Venereal Disease. D:

By the way, cheers for the article on architecture over on the Skulltag forums. I actually agree with most of the examples used, and in fact would probably have included several more besides (the tank thingy at the very beginning of the first map, for instance, and the place where you pick up the seismic bomb). Who knows, maybe some or all of these things will be addressed...

Haha, wow. Thanks. Like I mentioned in the post over on Skulltag, I didn't take those screenshots specifically for the purpose of using them in the thread, I took most of them during my first time looking at KDiZD and used them in the thread just because I had already uploaded the shots and didn't feel like looking for wads to take unflattering screenshots of. Admittedly, when I took those screenshots I was taking the opportunity to be an incredibly nitpicky arse; for the record I do actually like KDiZD, though some aspects of it took a while to grow on me. (otherwise I certainly wouldn't be spending my time on a project like this one)

The tank definitely does look pretty silly. The actual rock wall that you use the seismic bomb on, too, didn't look bad or poorly-made, but seemed oddly out of place, just sitting there in the middle of a wall full of computers and tech stuff. In KDiKDiZD you get to blow up a broken door there instead, heh.

Also, I sent you an email sometime last year in regard to TSoZD. Looking back at it, I probably should have rephrased some things to be less "hurr comedy lol keys on the other end of the map", but I think I made some valid points. (Speaking of that, I know you said you had been working on z2m1, that the project would be developed openly, and that a thread would be made here when it officially started...has any more progress been made on that, and do you have any idea when it might be announced? I've got way too many projects on my hands as it is, but I would be interested in maybe doing some work on z2m6 or something...er, I mean, bad essel! Finish your other projects first!)

Thanks again for your reply! It's nice to get support and encouragement from the original team.

[Risen]

I don't know about how others feel, but personally my issues with some parts of KDiZD's gameplay were more with the switch hunts that confused the hell out of me, and the keys that seemed to have been placed on the exact opposite end of the map, so that by the time you manage to find it you've forgotten where the door you needed it for was. :p Some of those will probably be altered a bit here.

Even as a member of the team, I felt this was a weakness in the project. In my opinion, M3 is terrible in this regard and it's far too easy to get lost. Enough of the team disagreed with me, so all that I was able to do to remedy the problem was to implement the automap arrows. But, what I saw as a weakness in the project, others enjoyed as a strong point. KDIZD did not have a short contributor's list. And, unlike projects where each author has their own map to work on, all of the work is compressed into 10 maps. When various authors' visions do not merge well, you run into problems.

What the KDIZD team focused on was not only having an enjoyable experience, but preserving each author's reinterpretation in some way. It's an incredibly difficult task to merge all of these conflicting visions (and skill levels) into something coherent. I think the team did about as good a job as any have with that. The project definitely shows its myriad of authors and interpretations along the way. It's true that some are better than others. If you ask people which are better and why, I doubt you'll get similar answers across the board.

You've got your ideas about what parts you liked and didn't, and I expect that. I certainly do hope to see the release and experience what your vision was. And, if you can keep your entire team to the same vision, you'll definitely have a more coherent project in the end than we did. Hopefully what you liked and what I liked are similar, so I can enjoy playing this just that much more. :)

[NiGHTMARE]

Thanks for your interest! I've got a few ideas in mind for that area, but I'm not sure exactly how it's going to turn out yet since I'm mostly concentrating on z1m1 right now, and since Catoptromancy is (if he actually gets to work on it within the next 10 years) supposed to be doing most of z1m2...

It may be of interest to know that the northwestern portion of that map was originally part of a vanilla compatible level made in something like 1997. Here's a few pics of the original: http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 002si7.png

Also, I sent you an email sometime last year in regard to TSoZD. Looking back at it, I probably should have rephrased some things to be less "hurr comedy lol keys on the other end of the map", but I think I made some valid points.

I remember that mail, but I got it shortly before suffering the dreaded hard disk death, and I couldn't remember who sent it. It's a shame a fair number people think of large portions of KDIZD as switch/key hunting rather than the simple exploration it was intended to be. I definitely agree that it's rather easy to get lost in places, and that backtracking/searching for the door you passed by earlier can be frustrating, but there are also portions of KDIZD I consider to be too linear (most of the super-secret level, for instance). Ideally, TSOZD's maps will be large enough and non-linear enough to allow for exploration, but the layouts will also be less confusing and annoying (do bear in mind, though, that some of the original episode 2 levels involve quite a lot of hunting/exploration already -- E2M2 and E2M7 spring to mind).

To achieve this, I believe there should more hints as to where certain things can be found (signs and computer monitors, for instance), individuals keys/switches should provide access to multiple doors (ala Suspended in Dusk), and keycards and switches should generally be found in the middle of loops rather than at dead ends. I remember someone suggesting we add more signs to KDIZD (possibly nmn -- there are certainly quite a few signs in Z1M4, which is primarily his work), and I myself suggested that we implent alternate routes back from keycards and switches -- even just teleports in cases where there's no room/the mapper is lazy -- but neither idea really seemed to generate much enthusiasm (though Z1M7 does should a fair few examples of the latter).

Judging by your Abandoned Mines-style level you were kind enough to send me some time ago, you also enjoy a fair amount of non-linearity, so if you have any other suggestions on reducing frustration in non-linear levels, please share!

Oh, and incidentally, I also got your mail re: Greenwar 2, but unfortunately it was at work where I can only receive personal e-mails and not send any, and I kept forgetting about it. Like you I have too many projects on the go already (almost all are non-Doom related though), but the revamp certainly sounds and looks interesting.

(Speaking of that, I know you said you had been working on z2m1, that the project would be developed openly, and that a thread would be made here when it officially started...has any more progress been made on that, and do you have any idea when it might be announced? I've got way too many projects on my hands as it is, but I would be interested in maybe doing some work on z2m6 or something...er, I mean, bad essel! Finish your other projects first!)

Well, it was supposed to be "officially" started some time back, but other hobbies and a series of real life events kept pushing it back (aforementioned hard drive death, power supply failure, new job, XWE corrupting the texture .wad and having to revert to a month-old backup, etc). I've still got several other things I want to get out the way first, so I'll say that the latest possible date it will begin in earnest is June 1st, which of course is the first anniversary of KDIZD's release. However, chances are it will happen long before that. (Oh, and a fair bit of work has been done on Z2M2 and Z2M3 as well as Z2M1).

Thanks again for your reply! It's nice to get support and encouragement from the original team.

No prob .

[esselfortium]

I remember that mail, but I got it shortly before suffering the dreaded hard disk death, and I couldn't remember who sent it.

Ack, sorry to hear that. Data loss sucks

I tend to think of switch/key hunting more as exploration, and I actually consider some KDIZD maps to be too linear (the super-secret levels, for instance). However, I do agree that it's rather easy to get lost in places, and that backtracking/searching for the door you passed by earlier can be frustrating. So, my aim is for maps to be large enough and non-linear enough to allow for exploration, but also for the layouts to be less confusing and annoying. To achieve this, I'll be recommending that levels feature multiple doors opened by the same switch/keycard (ala Suspended in Dusk), and/or for keycards and switches be found in the middle of loops rather than at the end of straight lines. Also, bear in mind some of the original episode 2 levels involve quite a lot of hunting/exploration already . E2M2 and E2M7 in particular spring to mind.

(At one point, I did suggest on that KDIZD forum that we implent alternate routes back from keycards and switches -- even just teleports in cases where there's no room/the mapper is lazy -- but the idea didn't really seem to be picked up, although there are a few instances of it in Z1M7).

I see, I'm glad to hear that. One thing that I think differentiates the e2m2/e2m7-style nonlinearity is the fact that, while you have lots of different paths you can take and the maps are pretty big, you don't have nearly as many things that you need to find as you do in some of the larger KDiZD maps. In KDiZD it sometimes just felt like switch/key overkill, in that you were forced to search for things all over the map to complete it, whereas with maps like e2m2 and e2m7 you have the choice between finishing it relatively quickly or spending a long time exploring around and finding all the side areas. I think that makes the exploration a lot more fun, personally.

Incidentally, I also got your mail re: Greenwar 2, but unfortunately it was at work where I can only receive personal e-mails and not send any, and I kept forgetting about it. Like you I have too many projects on the go already (almost all are non-Doom related though), but the revamp certainly sounds and looks interesting.

Ahh, okay. I guessed you'd be busy, but figured it couldn't hurt to ask.

Well, it was supposed to be "officially" started some time back, but other hobbies and a series of real life events kept pushing it back (aforementioned hard drive death, power supply failure, new job, XWE corrupting the texture .wad and having to revert to a month-old backup, etc). I've still got several other things I want to get out the way first, so I'll say that the latest possible date it will begin in earnest is June 1st, which of course is the first anniversary of KDIZD's release. However, chances are it will happen long before that.

Agh, yeah, XWE has done that to me before too. It seems to eat my PNAMES and add random characters to all the patch names every time I try adding new patches from it, so I usually use SLumpEd for everything except color remapping and playpal/colormap editing. SLumpEd has a bunch of weird crash bugs, but it's never broken any of my wads.

In any case, I'm interested to see how TSoZD turns out, when it does officially begin.

[NiGHTMARE]

Agh, yeah, XWE has done that to me before too. It seems to eat my PNAMES and add random characters to all the patch names every time I try adding new patches from it, so I usually use SLumpEd for everything except color remapping and playpal/colormap editing. SLumpEd has a bunch of weird crash bugs, but it's never broken any of my wads.

XWE hasn't done that to me (yet?); in this instance, it deleted the entire contents of the .wad! For texture lump editing my favourite editor is still WinTex, but unfortunately this .wad simply has too many textures for WinTex to handle.

In any case, I'm interested to see how TSoZD turns out, when it does officially begin.

Thanks! I forgot to mention: I know you've done a fair bit of texture work, so I'd definitely be interested in any textures you could offer for the project (though bear in mind they can't be modifications of Doom 2-only textures/flats).

[esselfortium]

Thanks! I forgot to mention: I know you've done a fair bit of texture work, so I'd definitely be interested in any textures you could offer for the project (though bear in mind they can't be modifications of Doom 2-only textures/flats).

Hmm...I'm not sure what I could offer as far as stuff that's already finished, but if there's anything you need made, I might be able to help out.