Changes In Forum Administration

[SanyaWaffles]

I am on board with these changes. I really was holding out hope about the Marisa biz being some sort of psyop, but it became apparent it wasn't to me within the past week.

It is a good start in the right direction. While I am not 100% comfortable being active here at the moment, if I can help in any way, it's any sort of ideas or feedback - which I hope is welcomed.

Here's a few thoughts. I want to be clear, these aren't demands or ultimatums, but suggestions and observations.

1.) A lot of people (myself included) use GZDoom as a commercial game engine. I feel the previous administration's handling of stuff painted GZDoom in a bad light, something that has been very painful at times. ZDoom Forums unfortunately now has a really bad reputation with hostility, something I wish to see addressed. Many people I work with are afraid to even come here - even before the recent controversy - due to the hostility - many of them good people who aren't Hall of Pleasantness material IMO.

In short, admins and mods need to be less temperamental. It is not a good look.

2.) I feel the Hall of Unpleasantness is a net negative. I understand wanting to show behavior as an example of 'we don't do this here', but I feel it has the opposite effect. I also get having a stand against bigotry and bad actors - but it comes across as unprofessional - and I feel some people consider it an honor to be featured there. That behavior should not be encouraged, and I feel the Hall of Unpleasantness has martyred bad actors, rather than discourage them.

I'd rather something like that not be made in the public eye. But if it must remain, posts issuing warnings/closing the topics should be clear, concise, and only say what's necessary to condemn the actions.

In short - Hall of Unpleasantness needs reformed, or needs to be privated.

3.) I know the banned user indication was lost in an upgrade, but I feel for transparency's sake, something should be brought back to make it clear that a user is banned, temporary or otherwise.

In short, a lot of my criticisms/suggestions can be summed up as a lack of professionalism and transparency.

As for forum organization stuff.

1.) There's way too many announcements, stickies, and such. I'll be direct - my car's manual is more concise and easy to read. No one is going to read these threads, they need to be consolidated, and some of them don't even apply.

2.) I know spam and comprimised accounts are a problem but there needs to be some streamlined process to get people's accounts back/create an account here. I dunno what that will entail - I know it's not easy.

I do wish Cali the best at this task ahead, as well as the moderators who remain.

[Graf Zahl]

---

Intriguing...

I do not believe PillowBlaster's statement had to do with Marisa et al. being trans, but rather he's attempting to highlight the fact that people who point out any sort of wrongdoing done on the part of somebody who just so happens to be trans are often - seemingly automatically - accused of being bigoted... just for pointing out something that has nothing to do with the person being trans.

No mention of "this person is trans and therefore wrong", no sweeping generalization of trans people saying "see this is what trans people do"... he's just seeing a pattern where, for whatever reason, certain people accuse any naysayers of being bigoted simply because the wrongdoer just so happens to be trans and therefore "anti-<wrongdoer> == anti-trans". He's pointing out the fact that there exist people who hide behind the "bigot" buzzword, abusing it to call others to arms and drown out the dissident opposition in a sea of confusion and madness and reactionary emotion.

PillowBlaster laid out his concern that the ZDoom moderators - many of whom just so happen to be trans themselves - could possibly be falling into this cycle; either because they were themselves afraid of being called bigots, or because they are actually petty enough to sling the word to silence others. He held that others ought to speak up about it and voice their dissent, regardless of who the wrongdoer is.

Like PillowBlaster said, "... it's not a 'phobia or 'ism to notice such things and to air your grievances...".

With all that in mind, considering how quickly PillowBlaster was banned and his comment censored, it's absolutely reasonable now to think that the fears which PillowBlaster expressed in his statement may indeed be true... and that's honestly scary.

You still ignore one thing here: You may not have been offended by that post - others definitely were.
Now you are doing the exact same you accuse the former admins of - let your own bias get in the way of a reasonable judgment.
While I didn't feel personally attacked by that post, I felt it went too far - and had I been the one moderating it it'd have gotten a stern warning that any repeat offense would result in a two week ban.

[Eric_]

Marisa is gone and will remain gone.

This is the last point I want to make on this subject.
The (former) staff and rest of the community who interacted with her are not entirely free of blame for how Marisa's situation played out. She was subject to over a decade of preferential treatment and coddling from the staff here and around the subcommunities. Her behaviors were excused time and time again, and it was always the other party who was blamed in any dispute involving her. In the staff's and her friends' efforts to protect her from harmful people targeting her, she was allowed to harm others and nobody ever told her she had done anything wrong. She wasn't a monster lurking in the midst that suddenly got caught, everyone who ever covered for her or excused her in the past had a hand in her stunted development. That stunted development would be exactly what went on to see her entrapped and ruined.
I'm bringing this up here because it's something we need to avoid ever repeating. Take people's reports of harassment or discomfort, even if they're directed towards a prominent veteran, even if that veteran has been targeted in the past, with all the seriousness that you would if the report came from that veteran themselves. Tell people when they're doing things that make you or others uncomfortable. Just because they've been here forever doesn't mean they're not an autistic wreck that doesn't innately understand social boundaries and what is and isn't appropriate public behavior. Just actually communicate with each other and we could solve problems like this before it reaches the point where people need to be exiled and staff need to resign.

[phantombeta]

[snip]

This is one of the few times I really wish this forum had an upvote system. I really agree with this, and this time I have some thoughts to add too:

The way people call others "monsters" for having done something horrible is a big part of this problem too. Dehumanizing people and thinking "only a monster could do this" is exactly why things like this are rarely caught. Anyone can turn out- or become- like this. Pretending that's not true, that everyone who does something like this is a "monster", is only distancing yourself from this reality.
It lets you ignore the signs before it happens, and believe yourself blameless after the fact. It lets you believe that you couldn't have known or done anything, and that you or the people you love or surround yourself with couldn't become like this, that this person had to be a "hidden monster" that got in your midst.
And it even makes you believe you couldn't become like this yourself, because surely you could never do something so horrible, only "monsters" could do this, and of course you're not one. And if you end up doing such a horrible thing, it lets you justify to yourself that you didn't mean to do it, that you're doing the right thing, or that your victim is a "monster" or evil themselves.

Freeing yourself from this behaviour, this pattern of thought, is key to making sure things like this really do get caught before it happens again.

(And to be clear, yes, this applies to any kind of horrible things people do and get called "monsters" for, not just this kind of case)

[DoomKrakken]

---

Intriguing...

I do not believe PillowBlaster's statement had to do with Marisa et al. being trans, but rather he's attempting to highlight the fact that people who point out any sort of wrongdoing done on the part of somebody who just so happens to be trans are often - seemingly automatically - accused of being bigoted... just for pointing out something that has nothing to do with the person being trans.

No mention of "this person is trans and therefore wrong", no sweeping generalization of trans people saying "see this is what trans people do"... he's just seeing a pattern where, for whatever reason, certain people accuse any naysayers of being bigoted simply because the wrongdoer just so happens to be trans and therefore "anti-<wrongdoer> == anti-trans". He's pointing out the fact that there exist people who hide behind the "bigot" buzzword, abusing it to call others to arms and drown out the dissident opposition in a sea of confusion and madness and reactionary emotion.

PillowBlaster laid out his concern that the ZDoom moderators - many of whom just so happen to be trans themselves - could possibly be falling into this cycle; either because they were themselves afraid of being called bigots, or because they are actually petty enough to sling the word to silence others. He held that others ought to speak up about it and voice their dissent, regardless of who the wrongdoer is.

Like PillowBlaster said, "... it's not a 'phobia or 'ism to notice such things and to air your grievances...".

With all that in mind, considering how quickly PillowBlaster was banned and his comment censored, it's absolutely reasonable now to think that the fears which PillowBlaster expressed in his statement may indeed be true... and that's honestly scary.

You still ignore one thing here: You may not have been offended by that post - others definitely were.
Now you are doing the exact same you accuse the former admins of - let your own bias get in the way of a reasonable judgment.
While I didn't feel personally attacked by that post, I felt it went too far - and had I been the one moderating it it'd have gotten a stern warning that any repeat offense would result in a two week ban.

With all due respect, you also failed to understand the point PillowBlaster made.

I'm not trying to exonerate Pillow by saying he didn't offend anybody, I'm almost certain the post would've offended somebody. What I'm saying is that his post was not transphobic. Whether or not it was offensive to some is a completely different issue... one that lies wholly outside the scope of this defense.

I will reiterate: it's not bigotry to point out the wrongdoing of another individual, regardless of who the person is. Regardless of the sexual identity, religion, race, or whatever other identifiers can be applied to the involved parties, pedophilia is wrong across the board.

[snip]

This is one of the few times I really wish this forum had an upvote system.

Oh please no, not Reddit: ZDoom Edition...

[Graf Zahl]

---

You still ignore one thing here: You may not have been offended by that post - others definitely were.
Now you are doing the exact same you accuse the former admins of - let your own bias get in the way of a reasonable judgment.
While I didn't feel personally attacked by that post, I felt it went too far - and had I been the one moderating it it'd have gotten a stern warning that any repeat offense would result in a two week ban.

With all due respect, you also failed to understand the point PillowBlaster made.

That's completely irrelevant. Whatever he was trying to say (yes, I freely admit that I had difficulties getting to the actual point of that diatribe) was presented in a manner that at least some people considered extremely offensive. The post made it very hard to get to the essence but made it very easy to piss people off. It's the presentation that matters here, not the presumed content.

[dawnbreez]

The accuser is (allegedly) located in the Philippines. If someone has enough information about the problem to notify the relevant authorities about illegal activity they may do so, however I will not be pursuing it and I would ask that this forum NOT be used to coordinate any such efforts.

Oh. Great. </sarcasm>

What really alarms me about this whole deal is that--and I hope this wasn't a popular position--but there was some debate over whether that person should've been banned as well. As mentioned, if we believe the logs that Marisa shared, then there's some serious crimes going on there. I don't particularly care about the moderation team shitstorm, possibly because I don't have complete context--I wasn't around for Skulltag, for instance--and a lot of what's being said about the moderation team is coming completely out of left field to me. What I am deeply, deeply concerned about is that there's people who framed "waiting for Marisa to post logs" as "defending a groomer", and there also appears to be people who were angry that the accuser was banned too--y'know, after distributing CSAM. Oh, and I've also already seen someone claim that Marisa would've been banned years ago if not for Muh Wokeness; I'm not gonna give a name because I don't think it's worth pursuing one person over, but if that attitude is more widespread than I thought, that's also concerning...

Look. Maybe there's additional context here. I'm still untangling just what's in the other thread, and that's an incomplete picture itself. I'm not sure how long it'll take for me to feel like I do have a good understanding of what happened. Maybe I'm jumping at shadows, and the people who raised hell over banning Marisa's accuser are a tiny tiny group that is not being taken seriously at all, and the people who are angry that the moderation team took so long to take action are just really bad at presenting their argument, and the one guy who blamed the diversity crowd for making everything worse is just one guy. I look at this whole mess, and all I see is all the things I don't know because, apparently, over a decade of doom community drama has been sailing right over my head.

This whole thing has me feeling like I'm losing my mind.

[EDIT]: For clarity, "the one guy who blamed the diversity crowd" was not Pillowblaster.

[The Toxic Avenger]

Now that I've collected my thoughts on this, I've said before that yes, this is the right direction to go in. Realistically a fresh start is needed and the direction things were going in was destructive to everyone.

If the resigned are reading this, please note that there was no smear campaign, this was not done out of revenge for what happened in March. This was done out of concern for the community and the damage it could potentially have done. I lost a friend (weasel) out of this and it sucks, but I also know that feeling of realizing that a friend of yours did something kinda shitty and you really don't want to let that person go; I've been through it, what with Twitch streamers I've financially supported (one for years and hung with in their server) turn out to be kinda heinous people. It clouds your judgment, sometimes very badly, and you don't realize it until it's too late. Honestly, even for the worst of the bunch (not Marisa), there is a >0% of some kind of bettering themselves and if they're willing to pull themselves up, realize their transgressions and better themselves, I would at least hear them out, but first, time to heal is needed.

[Hellser]

Typing on a phone and on my 15 min break at work: I personally am not quick to throw a thread or post into the Hall of Unpleasantness. I also believe PillowBlaster's post was in the right. IMO, the ban was unjustified and was a kneejerk reaction in an attempt to settle a very hot topic. Cali unbanned PB. At no point did I feel that PB's post was a bigot attack.

Could he worded it better? Yes. But, he didn't need to.

Will be keeping an eye on this thread during my Lunch Break, keep it civil.

[dawnbreez]

Could he worded it better? Yes. But, he didn't need to.

So this got me curious, and I went to actually look at PB's post, and...yeah, this is exactly the kinda shit I was worried about. Framing the situation as "If this wasn't an 'inclusive space', this wouldn't have happened" is exactly the thing I'm worried about--because it takes Marisa's individual actions, and spins it up into "This is because we let trans people be here at all" instead of, y'know, an individual doing shit she really shouldn't have. And it also puts all the focus on Marisa--which I understand, because Marisa's the big name in this situation, and is the one who stands accused, but it also quietly ignores the part where her accuser was apparently doing something way worse than what Marisa was accused of.

This is not "holding people accountable", despite what Pillowblaster claimed it was. It's the opposite of holding people accountable. It's ignoring the actual, real, Very Fucking Bad crimes of one person--because they got in an accusation first, and because the accusation was against someone whose presence makes this an Inclusive Space.

[Crazy_Deer]

I'm with you there. People trying to excuse that is souring me on this site even faster than all the other bollocks recently shown

[cyber_cool]

So this got me curious, and I went to actually look at PB's post, and...yeah, this is exactly the kinda shit I was worried about. Framing the situation as "If this wasn't an 'inclusive space', this wouldn't have happened" is exactly the thing I'm worried about--because it takes Marisa's individual actions, and spins it up into "This is because we let trans people be here at all" instead of, y'know, an individual doing shit she really shouldn't have.

PB expressed a valid concern, which shouldn't be repeated in the future. It's not about trans people being here at all, it's about staff members mostly consisting of trans people, which is, you know, quite unusual and raises some questions. They are called "minority" for a reason.
I am not putting all the blame on the former mod team for handling the situtaion, shit happens. But it's like holding an international sports event and have all judges being from the same country that also participates. It's impossible for them not to be biased. Same thing happened here.

This is not "holding people accountable", despite what Pillowblaster claimed it was. It's the opposite of holding people accountable. It's ignoring the actual, real, Very Fucking Bad crimes of one person--because they got in an accusation first, and because the accusation was against someone whose presence makes this an Inclusive Space.

You know, I find this hard to agree with, because the whole point of PBs post was that the actual crimes were getting ignored for quite some time BECAUSE Marisa's accusers were getting, in their turn, accused of bigotry and trying to attack her gender identity, while they were getting at an actual act of sexual harassment.

That's completely irrelevant. Whatever he was trying to say (yes, I freely admit that I had difficulties getting to the actual point of that diatribe) was presented in a manner that at least some people considered extremely offensive. The post made it very hard to get to the essence but made it very easy to piss people off. It's the presentation that matters here, not the presumed content.

It will sound stupid to most people, but let me say that: don't get offended. You may completely disagree with the post in question, but it's far from a direct attack on somebody or a group of people. It's just talking about state of things as they are. It's harshly worded, but you can't be all polite and tolerant all the time. If you wanna make your point, you will not write "sorry for accusing you of this, sorry for implying that you did something wrong, I have nothing against this group of people" a thousand times. You will either get straight to the point or don't write anything at all.

[SanyaWaffles]

I think hyperfixating on PB's post and all that it entails is not constructive. I understand the frustration - and how it was offensive to some people. The past week has been a really, really rough time for everyone. Not excusing poor judgment, as a trans person myself I saw the post and raised some eyebrows myself.

I can't deny though, the actions of the admins before, is not a good look and that gave bigots a lot more ammo now, and that does make me sick that people are using it as such.

EDIT: clarified something.

[cyber_cool]

I think hyperfixating on PB's post and all that it entails is not constructive. I understand the frustration - and how it was offensive to some people. The past week has been a really, really rough time for everyone. Not excusing poor judgment, as a trans person myself I saw the post and raised some eyebrows myself.

While we're essentially beating a dead horse here, a new moderation team has to be formed. If the same mistakes will be repeated, these changes would have been for nothing. I guess that's why me and several other people are bothered to debate moving PB's post and give attention to it - it expresses valid concerns.

[Dynamo]

I think hyperfixating on PB's post and all that it entails is not constructive. I understand the frustration - and how it was offensive to some people. The past week has been a really, really rough time for everyone. Not excusing poor judgment, as a trans person myself I saw the post and raised some eyebrows myself.

Seconded. PillowBlaster was upst and used ambiguous language. But Cage came to the thread, and vouched for a friend and a colleague with all his honesty. I have absolutely no reason not to trust Cage on this. At the same time, I understand those who raised their eyebrows at the post and felt that maybe a warning was justified. But I'd say reversing the ban was the right thing to do here.

On that note, I wish the new administration the best in being able to regain the trust of the userbase, which, due to a divide that has grown increasingly in recent years, really took a hit. I truly hope things will only get better from here, and old feuds will be put to rest.