Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by Kinsie »

Caligari87 wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:31 pm Seeing the various "please follow our project on [literally any other site]" in project threads feels like a death knell, a fundamental fracture the likes of which I've never heard in my nearly 20 years of calling this board "my internet home."
I'm on the precipice of joining in. It'd suck, but a lot of things people have to do suck.
Eric_ wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:45 pm This is not a complete solution - as long as she remains the website owner, she will be God-Emperor by default and at best her influence will be hidden from the public eye, just the way she likes it.
Here's a secret-but-probably-not-really: Last I heard, Rachael isn't the site owner. WildWeasel is, on account of paying all of the server bills.
BROS_ETT_311 wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 5:57 pm Marty, I mean no disrespect, but I absolutely disagree with disabling comments on the video. I understand the objective might be to roadblock potential bigots, but I strongly believe lessening engagement on the matter is a step in the wrong direction.
The comments section was sadly getting brigaded by people who had been booted from here and the larger community for actual good reasons indulging their transphobia. It sucks, but closing it was the lesser evil.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by Muusi »

Any authority that showed support for someone like Marisa should step down from their position immediately, log off for a good while and think about this in-real-life. Have you been online for so long that the word "grooming" or "pedophile" doesn't actually mean anything to you anymore? That people are just avatars, without an actual person behind them? This involves children and a disturbed person who is sexually attracted to them. There should be no excuses to not immediately ban and cut contact with someone like that, no matter how close or how long you've known each other.

If you tried in any way to minize this, I'm not comfortable with you.
Last edited by Muusi on Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by DemonSlayer »

WTF...
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by Brohnesorge »

man really saw the word "transphobic", ignored this entire thread and took the opportunity to go on a "why can't I be racist" style rant.

Anyway, to be actually productive, I'm another creator currently strongly considering leaving over various factors. I'm largely a nobody who, even leading up to this, had largely removed himself from the community at large, but kinda remained on the sidelines. But I feel its important that people know its not just big names and heavy hitters with a lot of these feelings and thoughts, its us small people too. A lot of us have been too afraid to speak up because any kind of dissent (regardless of it being legit criticism or dramatic shit stirring) is rapidly met with insults, thread locking, Halling or banning. I'm not going to reiterate any points, because anything I could say has been said better by the likes of Eric, Kinsie, PySpy, Marty, Tapwave and even Ace (with much less anger). I strongly support the notion that a change in the upper echelons needs to happen because none of the feelings I've mentioned above are new. I've been having them for damn near a decade. And I can't be the only small fry that has.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by yum13241 »

buxomdev wrote: And that's what I keep noticing about these posts from the mods. It's always 'it wasn't my intention' or 'we didn't mean it that way', when the results of their actions are what I described above. You can't argue intent over results. They may not intend to act like a team of super moderators abusing their power, but what difference does it make when the result is the same as a team of super moderators abusing their power?
Hey, not all the admins are Rachael you know. Caligari87 hasn't flamed anyone yet.
buxomdev wrote: Graf, if your only contribution to the conversation is 'THIS IS DRAMA AND DRAMA IS BAD AND THIS VIDEO IS STUPID',
I don't think you should try to shut up Graf here. Sure he added almost nothing, but everyone has the right to their opinion.
dpJudas wrote: I did read your post. There you summarized my post incorrectly. After all, if I'm the devil's advocate, the admins must be the devil.
I did not expect for you to take it literally.
Caligari87 wrote: All internet community moderation is by nature dictatorial. You can't open every ban to a vote (or whatever) because nothing would ever get done. So yeah, a lot of stuff does happen internally. At the staff level, we do talk about stuff and try to come to consensus (though, ironically not as much lately as I would like). We also like to think that moderators are capable of making individual decisions if necessary for critical issues.
There's a difference between a king/queendom and a dictatorship. You can't vote on everything yes, but even a king/queendom has some voting (source: I live in one). A dictatorship has none. (source: North Korea)
Caligari87 wrote: So yeah, I'm interested in how people feel. Because right now I feel like if we just try to let things blow over and keep trucking on the same road we've been following for the last five years or so, I'll end up leaving too. I don't want to leave.
I very much agree.
dpJudas wrote: Candice in particular has done what exactly here? Last I checked she worked hard getting the servers back online that a lot of people in the larger doom community depend on and this is the reward? She got promoted too quickly?
This has the same energy as, "hurr durr I'm your parent you eternally owe me". While some of the administration have done good things to GZDoom the port, most have only made ZDoom the forum turn more and more into an internet version of North Korea.
Graf in particular could probably go without the forum if it had to go, but some admin(s) couldn't go without their internet North Korea.
cyber_cool wrote: Well, I am sorry to not meet your expectations, but improper moderation is what allowed this incident to escalate and cause more damage that it could have.
Also not everyone has got connections or even a solid opinion on Marisa. But these people can still discuss the other aspect of this situation.
Let's try to take action, and not shit out walls of text that don't change anything.
Disagreeing has the same energy as "hurr durr you aren't one of the founding fathers".
Eric_ wrote: but the bare minimum apology right now is to remove her from any administrative capacity. This is not a complete solution - as long as she remains the website owner, she will be God-Emperor by default and at best her influence will be hidden from the public eye
I believe the only person with that capability (founder access) is Randi.
Hellser wrote: Wholeheartedly agree. The damage is done, all we can do is start to improve ourselves - not just for us, not just the ZDoom Forums, but the entire Doom community.
Yes the initial damage is done, if the forum just tries to wing like it is now, it it'll just crash into a pit of tar.
Spoiler: Not too serious tbh
How to improve:
In an ideal would we could:
1. Make Rachael step down.
2. Make the new head admin Caligari87. (if he wants to)
3. Make everyone else reapply for their role.
4. Make everything more transparent.

More realistically we could:
1. Start a new forum. (GZDoom Forums might work)
2. Lament all day.
3. Make Rachael actually apologize.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by Armaetus »

In the nearly 30 years (IE around 1995-1996) I've been playing, modding and mapping for this game, never would I have thought something of this magnitude unravel and be both disappointed and disgusted on how this was handled in general. I sincerely hope that in light of this that we can move on and fix this fissure as another poster compared the damage done from behavior and actions from some of the initial knee-jerk reactions when the news was flaming hot.

With Rachael's name coming up so much by others, she is the one who needs significant change in behavior around moderation choices or be replaced by someone more level-headed and won't be prone to poor decisions. Some other moderators need to adjust theirs while I praise Caligari87's sincerity from the posts I have seen since reading it from page 1.

We all need to do better as a community, not have things go down Game of Thrones style on who is with who, who doesn't like who, etc. Unity over division and squabbling.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by Professor Hastig »

yum13241 wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:25 am
How to improve:
In an ideal would we could:
1. Make Rachael step down.
2. Make the new head admin Caligari87. (if he wants to)
3. Make everyone else reapply for their role.
4. Make everything more transparent.

More realistically we could:
1. Start a new forum. (GZDoom Forums might work)
2. Lament all day.
3. Make Rachael actually apologize.

I couldn't help but notice some erratic behavior by Rachael myself over the few months I've been here.
If you ask me, any of the continued bashing will probably have the same effect as constantly criticizing Donald Trump - i.e. none. What I have learned is that people showing these traits just ignore all the criticism they get and go on just as before.
But how do we go from here? In realistic terms, if you try to boot out Rachael this forum will die, so either we have to arrange ourselves with the situation or continue the bashing until someone takes out the hammer.

buxomdev wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 6:35 pm Graf, if your only contribution to the conversation is 'THIS IS DRAMA AND DRAMA IS BAD AND THIS VIDEO IS STUPID', then why are you even saying anything at all? You're just conveniently skipping over the need to have this conversation in the first place, that a group of super mods (regardless of their stated intentions) were trying to throw their weight around multiple Doom communities, wanted to memory hole an incident surrounding an accused pedophile and force these communities to accept a potential predator back into their midst? And Marty was the one taking it too far when he exposed this? Should he have just said nothing and let the Fun Police quietly erase any evidence of this incident?
As much as I understand you all, there is one thing Graf said which I have to concur with: That video was one step too far. Yes, it is precisely what he called it: washing your dirty laundry in public to put pressure on some people. It's a recurring theme with the internet I have learned to utterly despise because it's not about resolving a bad situation but to make the other side to give in without giving them any realistic chance to make their point clear. In addition, this normally is not going to work.
I'll be honest here: Had I been in charge, anybody involved in that video and those constantly pushing it would be gone for good. This is absolutely not the right way to further your agenda. In this case it does not matter if you are right or wrong, it's just a thing you don't do. Period.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by DoomKrakken »

Hello, everyone... DoomKrakken here.

I'll just cut to my two cents. The whole situation with Marisa is itself its own level of screwed up, but that's a topic we can discuss to heck and beyond... elsewhere. My main concern right now is the absolute lack of faith I currently have in the majority of the current ZDoom administration.

Despite the fact that I despise any form of pedophile - especially one who would solicit nudes from a minor - and that moderation acted so unprofessionally about it... I can't say I blame their hesitancy (I'd be slow to believe such accusations toward a longtime friend, myself). I can, however, point out the private comments they made about how "the piper is coming" and "the accusers shall burn", which is HIGHLY unprofessional and - sadly - telling of a massive lack of growth present for at least 6 years.

I am sickened, disgusted, and severely disappointed with what transpired as of late. Right now, I am - quite frankly - feeling absolutely betrayed and heartbroken.

Let me be clear when I say my anger has nothing to do with this new revelation involving Marisa (well... I am still furious about that, but again that's not the reason for this post), and I'm not even directing my anger at the way it was handled (even though I wholly agree it was handled absolutely poorly and Marty et al. were "done dirty", so to speak). I am expressing concerns with underlying factors that have plagued one or more of the moderators for years, factors which can and should be blamed for the absolute diarrhea deluge we're seeing today and in many other situations.

The concern is this: said moderators have been emotionally compromised for the longest time... because of this, they lash out with intense emotion, they react with UNDUE RASHNESS AND IRRATIONALITY, and they respond with - dare I say - a prejudiced searing sizzling HATRED in their minds and hearts toward anybody that so much as annoys them.

They have demonstrated time and again their desire to enforce the doctrine that is their word, preach the "infallibility" of their personal beliefs, and their willingness to demonize anybody who says otherwise, even respectfully.

As a result, they ostracize people like Marty so the personal beliefs of these emotionally-compromised moderators may remain unchallenged. Whether or not these moderators realize it, this controls the community at large so members of the community cannot speak their minds on what they think is right. Meanwhile, these moderators' polluted doctrines on just about anything - EVEN POLITICS, MIND YOU - are able to run free and rampant and without resistance... and we dissidents are thus silenced lest we lose our precious ZDoom Forums access.

The worst part of this is that I actually trusted that these moderators would be able to learn from past mistakes and experiences, since my first negative dealings with said moderators years ago. I fooled myself into thinking they would improve, that they wouldn't be so impulsive and react with that sort of emotion. I'm shocked and appalled to learn that there has been little - if any - growth.

What's done is done, but it is UNACCEPTABLE and WE. WILL. NO. LONGER. STAND. FOR. IT.

I'm not one to burn bridges (I'm still not, nor do I wish to be), but I do fear my statements here will forever tarnish my relationship with these people... people I had hoped one day to call dear friends... because they will be petty enough to burn that bridge for me. I entered the forums as an outcast, I shall be banished from the forums as an outcast.

With all that said, let's move onto how I believe moderation should look from now on, concerning the forums in their current state:
1) Admins must act fairly and in the best interest of the forum at large.
2) Admins must follow the rules they themselves set.
3) Regardless of how irrationally an admin thinks, if an admin acts out of order by abusing admin privileges and breaking the rules, said admin must be reprimanded by the other admins and have the offending act scrutinized, evaluated, judged, and - if reversed - culminate with the offending admin either stepping down from his position or offering a public and sincere apology before returning to his post. An admin may be forcibly retired if all other admins unilaterally agree to proceed with that course of action.
4) Rule changes MUST BE UNILATERALLY AGREED UPON BY EVERY ADMIN. NO EXCEPTIONS.
5) Guidelines may be publicly instituted by admins with a majority vote. Guidelines can help to guide general behavior and discourse and outline possible new directions for the forums, but shall not be grounds for banishment.
6) When admins allow the discussion of a topic, even a sensitive one, they must allow dissidents to state their own cases as well, personal beliefs be damned. If they cannot, or if the vast majority of the dissent is flagged as "hatred" or "bigotry", then the discussion topic as a whole must be shut down. As uncommon and elusive as "common sense" seems to be today, let us still have faith that we as a community can come together to discuss things and even express our dissent in a respectful, constructive, and meaningful manner.
7) All rules and guidelines must be clearly and thoroughly stated. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN "UNSPOKEN RULE".

Personally, I believe anybody who's actively working on GZDoom itself should not also be responsible for moderating the forums. As much as we like to believe in the illusion of "multitasking", people can't really "hyperthread" their attention like that.

I sincerely hope the new moderation that is instituted will take this advice to heart... assuming any decent change at all is made.

Despite all this, despite all my anger toward moderation at this point, I still love the community. It was here where I first met several of my coding heroes, all of whom have taught me so much about the engine and how to use it, and it was here where I learned to expand beyond the confines of Brutal Doom.

My faith in current moderation is permanently shattered, and it will be a while before my faith in future moderation is fully restored. Thus I cannot rely on moderation to keep the community afloat, despite what Graf Zahl has to say about it. I implore the community at large, therefore, to not let the community fall apart because of the mistakes of a few.

Let us endeavor to mend what was broken, and emerge stronger than ever before.

Let us be united not by our personal biases and beliefs, but by our enduring love for the game that is Doom.

Let us once again be a Doom community, now and forever.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by Batandy »

I will give my two cents here even though basically I agree with what has been already said. Py and Eric's posts pretty much sum all of my thoughts on this matter.

First of all, I'll say that I believe that not all of the mods actually wanted this, if I were a mod myself, I don’t know how I would’ve acted in such a critical situation, so I understand why some of them didn’t do the right thing, not out of ill-intent but rather of just being unprepared to handle something like this. I also understand giving Marisa the benefit of a doubt since she was a highly regarded user among the community.

That said it should've taken a week at best to put your foot down and take a decision instead of trying to sweep the whole thing under the rug, it's absolutely inexcusable.
Marisa has proven to be unreliable in providing a proper statement and has not managed to earn your trust, and you should've acted accordingly instead of trying to protect her just because of her reputation as modder.
I am sure that we wouldn't be having this conversation if it was a random user with 10 posts and a trollwad thread.

Next, the second and central topic of this is that certain people among the moderation has been unable to talk with the community as a part of the community but instead decided to go and put themselves on a pedestal, calling the whole thing just drama, accusing Marty of stirring up the pot, and instead of actually replying to him and having a polite discourse, he got BANNED, and no, unbanning him and the others doesn't change this fact.

The way this was handled proves to me that moderation here is unreliable and has failed.
Those who thought about hiding the whole thing need to step down and have other people that actually understand the community be moderators.

I hold no grudge against Rachael, but she in particular needs to absolutely step down, there's proof in this very thread that she cannot be trusted as a moderator. And that's all there is to it, I don't think she needs to be banned from the community itself, I just think that she gets her personal beliefs and emotions get in the way of providing neutral moderation, somebody else who is able to comunicate with the community and act in a neutral manner during delicate situations needs to take her role instead.

There can only be two outcomes out of this now, you either understand the needs of the community, clearly comunicate with it and show that you understand and want to do better, or keep this vicious cycle going till this forum is nothing but a shadow of its former self, more than what it already is.

I hope that the tide will turn and we can be a strong community once again.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by fakemai »

I'll just issue the warning that Newdoom used to exist, and while it was trying to make people pay to use the site that ultimately killed it there was already Phoebus being prone to power tripping and a lot of animosity towards him for that that did not help. Ultimately the main reason I'm here is because it hosts a lot of fun mods and it's where I can thank and give feedback to the authors. The people running the site merely provide the space for that.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by DoomKrakken »

Ah... so THAT'S why we don't see any more NewDoom Community Projects anymore, or any such updates...

Sad. :(
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by yum13241 »

Italics are mine.
Batandy wrote: I hold no grudge against Rachael, but she in particular needs to absolutely step down, there's proof in this very thread that she cannot be trusted as a moderator. And that's all there is to it, I don't think she needs to be banned from the community itself, I just think that she gets her personal beliefs and emotions get in the way of providing neutral moderation, somebody else who is able to communicate (fixed spelling mistake) with the community and act in a neutral manner during delicate situations needs to take her role instead.
I agree. I find it weird that Rachael hasn't replied yet. Not to mention the arrogance behind the name "Eruanna". Stop trying to call yourself God's grace. Or rather, you already did. I do believe that Rachael can still redeem herself (and by extension, Candice). People are human. Yes, Rachael shouldn't have tried to sweep this under the rug. What's done is done, but this SHOULD NOT HAPPEN AGAIN. I still believe Rachael needs to step down, for she is far too irrational.
Batandy wrote: There can only be two outcomes out of this now, you either understand the needs of the community, clearly communicate (fixed spelling mistake) with it and show that you understand and want to do better, or keep this vicious cycle going till this forum is nothing but a shadow of its former self, more than what it already is.
Welcome to Skulltag 2: Electric Boogaloo!
DoomKrakken wrote: said moderators have been emotionally compromised for the longest time... because of this, they lash out with intense emotion, they react with UNDUE RASHNESS AND IRRATIONALITY, and they respond with - dare I say - a prejudiced searing sizzling HATRED in their minds and hearts toward anybody that so much as annoys them.
If you think Rachael is messed up, the moderators of /r/unpopularopinion are on a whole 'nother level. This doesn't excuse the irrationality. Let's be less like Doom demons.

I'm pretty sure we've exhausted everything we need to say.
One thing is clear: The forum cannot survive like this. There has to be a reform. Apologies need to be given.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by bimshwel »

As someone who has been around since the older forum that was made out of papier mache and elmer's glue, I am surprised how little I know about what goes on around here. I tried to be social early on and wasn't good at it, but have since found the forum useful for getting help with my bad code and exhibiting some of what I have constructed. Occasionally I have asked questions that got me needlessly rude responses but nothing I was traumatized at length over. That's just what happens on these things sometimes. But one person who was involved, sort of, in the Marisa business, and who for whatever reason talks to me a lot, posted a thread about the topic weeks ago and it was abruptly hidden and locked. I agree that is not a good way to solve a problem. It was bizarre where I had to look just to figure out just WHAT the heap this story was, and I guess it's becoming a substantial heap. I got a hint of administration childishness from some of the alerts issued by the discord server but discord itself tends to veer childish. I might have turned them off. But I like the forum, usually, what I see of it. Good luck in your endeavors.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by yum13241 »

To add to my previous post, if we just let the issue die, nothing will happen. Rachael will continue with her childishness, nepotism will continue, no one will learn, and this forum may or may not turn into Skulltag 2: Electric Boogaloo.
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Re: Statement regarding Marisa the Magician (aka Marisa Kirisame)

Post by Negostrike »

This is all very disappointing to read. While I can understand some initial horror and hesitation to act about a friend and fellow community member being a predator, as a moderator you have to know what your job is, and clearly some of the team don't. Authority is to be challenged always so y'all can do a better job. Be transparent, especially on an issue that affects people (especially children) horribly. Swallow the false victim tears, take a breath and act on the issue. Or don't. Stepping out is also a choice.

Nobody wants this community to die. I may not post here often but I always look forward for projects posted here and elsewhere. Take this opportunity to learn and improve.

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