GZDoom Development for x86 & x64 systems

Discuss anything ZDoom-related that doesn't fall into one of the other categories.
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fakemai
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Re: GZDoom Development for x86 & x64 systems

Post by fakemai »

Blzut3 wrote:Not true. The keys for 32-bit and 64-bit Windows have been interchangeable since Vista.
It IS still a problem to reinstall but sorry for being wrong on that.
sinisterseed wrote:There's also something else to be mentioned here, talking about funds - hardware costs.
My recent acquisition isn't anything special hardware-wise, and my unicorn has an Intel GM45. GZDoom's requirements are largely about what you intend to use it for, generally maps are a limit as are mods that require (as opposed to optional eye-candy) higher-specced systems for specific features. For just loading the vanilla game it's a low ceiling.
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Re: GZDoom Development for x86 & x64 systems

Post by Graf Zahl »

sinisterseed wrote:
Graf Zahl wrote:Yeah, it was just one single percent, the vast majority of those on systems that just barely pass the support threshold for their graphics hardware.
On Steam I also have witnessed an acceleration of the decline since the Windows 11 release last year (0.31% to 0.18% in just the last 5 months alone!) My guess is that older Windows 10 systems that get retired by their former users now start to replace those ancient potatoes from a different era of computing.
There's also something else to be mentioned here, talking about funds - hardware costs.

Until recent, when the crypto crash occurred, it was basically impossible to find hardware at decent prices, or GPUs at the very least, which typically sold for ludicrous prices, so building a W11-compatible system from scratch was in no way an option for most people (and it probably isn't that good of an idea to upgrade semi-old hardware anyway).
I was fortunate enough to be able to put the graphics card from my former computer into the new one. That Geforce 1060 may not be the most powerful thing around but it was surely a better option than the integrated one. I'm going to replace it once there's better RTX options around - that crypto craze not only caused a major price hike but also stopped GPU advancements pretty good. It somehow feels that over the last two years nothing happend on the graphics card front.
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Re: GZDoom Development for x86 & x64 systems

Post by sinisterseed »

Graf Zahl wrote:I was fortunate enough to be able to put the graphics card from my former computer into the new one. That Geforce 1060 may not be the most powerful thing around but it was surely a better option than the integrated one. I'm going to replace it once there's better RTX options around - that crypto craze not only caused a major price hike but also stopped GPU advancements pretty good. It somehow feels that over the last two years nothing happend on the graphics card front.
Pretty much, yeah.

It may also be that this is just the best the current hardware can do, RTX and the recent advances in upscaling technology may be the last notable advancements for a good while. There's otherwise not been any eye-catching changes, just "new generation faster and more powerful than the last one."
fakemai wrote:My recent acquisition isn't anything special hardware-wise, and my unicorn has an Intel GM45. GZDoom's requirements are largely about what you intend to use it for, generally maps are a limit as are mods that require (as opposed to optional eye-candy) higher-specced systems for specific features. For just loading the vanilla game it's a low ceiling.
That may be, but if you intend to use your hardware for anything outside light gaming and streaming/browsing the web, the offerings available during the crypto craze were very far removed from being decent.

As I said, for what I could get for almost one grand was just disgraceful, I was better off keeping my hardware as going forward... well, that's the thing, there was *no* going forward, just having to find an integrated solution that wasn't a downgrade from my 950...
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Re: GZDoom Development for x86 & x64 systems

Post by Graf Zahl »

sinisterseed wrote: It may also be that this is just the best the current hardware can do, RTX and the recent advances in upscaling technology may be the last notable advancements for a good while.
I don't think so. IMO cause and effect here were clear - the prices were so exorbitantly high that developing and releasing new hardware made no sense commercially. It would have all gone right into the crypto-craze never reaching its intended customers.
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Re: GZDoom Development for x86 & x64 systems

Post by Phredreeke »

fakemai wrote:My recent acquisition isn't anything special hardware-wise, and my unicorn has an Intel GM45. GZDoom's requirements are largely about what you intend to use it for, generally maps are a limit as are mods that require (as opposed to optional eye-candy) higher-specced systems for specific features. For just loading the vanilla game it's a low ceiling.
Unless I'm mistaken that chipset is from 2008. Is it really reasonable to expect developers to support hardware that's approaching 15 years old? :?
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Re: GZDoom Development for x86 & x64 systems

Post by Graf Zahl »

Certainly not. There will always be the point where hardware becomes too old to be supported with code that also needs to support recent hardware well.

Intel GM45 means OpenGL 2.0, and that is entirely incompatible with what modern hardware needs to work as intended.
A good example here is the VSync issues with Build ports and NVidia hardware. The main culprit here was some old OpenGL 2 code that does not work well anymore with hardware from the Vulkan age. As time goes on, this will happen again and again, necessitating to drop support for old hardware. Again people will complain why we drop hardware "that has worked well in the last version", failing to understand that it's not that their hardware suddenly does not meet the requirement anymore but that continued support for it would put a major drag on the entire project when handling support for more modern stuff.
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Re: GZDoom Development for x86 & x64 systems

Post by fakemai »

Phredreeke wrote:Unless I'm mistaken that chipset is from 2008. Is it really reasonable to expect developers to support hardware that's approaching 15 years old? :?
You are not mistaken, and no it is not! However it is playable with OpenGL ES. It's a really low bar. So is my recent acquisition with a Maxwell GPU that supports Vulkan at least on Linux.
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Re: GZDoom Development for x86 & x64 systems

Post by sinisterseed »

fakemai wrote:
Phredreeke wrote:Unless I'm mistaken that chipset is from 2008. Is it really reasonable to expect developers to support hardware that's approaching 15 years old? :?
You are not mistaken, and no it is not! However it is playable with OpenGL ES. It's a really low bar. So is my recent acquisition with a Maxwell GPU that supports Vulkan at least on Linux.
Speaking of which, I would honestly not recommend going for Maxwell cards at this point in time.

The introduction of driver series... I think it was 500, dropped support for Kepler last year as well. Next up on the chopping block is the 900 line of cards, and the 750ti. If anything I expect driver series 600 to drop support for it, which isn't too far away.
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Re: GZDoom Development for x86 & x64 systems

Post by dpJudas »

If you're a Linux user with a preference for nvidia then keep in mind that their new open sourced kernel module only supports the very latest models. That means you will very quickly end up in the nasty part of legacy land as they transition. If you have the option, the best strategy right now is probably to wait for the 40 series announcement and then pick up a cheap 30 series card right after that.
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Re: GZDoom Development for x86 & x64 systems

Post by Redneckerz »

fakemai wrote:
sinisterseed wrote:There's also something else to be mentioned here, talking about funds - hardware costs.
My recent acquisition isn't anything special hardware-wise, and my unicorn has an Intel GM45. GZDoom's requirements are largely about what you intend to use it for, generally maps are a limit as are mods that require (as opposed to optional eye-candy) higher-specced systems for specific features. For just loading the vanilla game it's a low ceiling.
GMA4500HD = DX10 with OpenGL 2.1.
Yeah, you can actually run the OpenGLES renderer. But you won't have all the fancy stuff, nor should you expect any eye candy either.

Unless the intent is to see how far you can push the GLES renderer, then you are better off with better hardware - Heck, even my HD4600 which does support the minimum regular GZ requirements i just keep the advanced settings low, or just use GLES. I find GLES works better on that level of hardware anyway.

GZDoom's advanced features require a certain level of hardware that you won't get from 10 year old integrated stuff.
Phredreeke wrote:
fakemai wrote:My recent acquisition isn't anything special hardware-wise, and my unicorn has an Intel GM45. GZDoom's requirements are largely about what you intend to use it for, generally maps are a limit as are mods that require (as opposed to optional eye-candy) higher-specced systems for specific features. For just loading the vanilla game it's a low ceiling.
Unless I'm mistaken that chipset is from 2008. Is it really reasonable to expect developers to support hardware that's approaching 15 years old? :?
I mean technically due to the GLES renderer, GZDoom should run on a Radeon 9700 - Which is 20 years old!

But then you have to factor in what else was available at that time frame - And then you are back in Pentium 4 land with slow DDR1 memory.

And at that point you are better off with a unofficial fork that targets that level of hardware then attempting to get GZ running reasonably there.

Though ill be the last to say that it wouldn't be fun seeing a Radeon 9700 running the latest GZ... :lol:
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Re: GZDoom Development for x86 & x64 systems

Post by leileilol »

On the other hand........ those old GeforceFX-shaming mighty R300 cards degrade pretty badly, most likely can't age gracefully to 20. :(
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Re: GZDoom Development for x86 & x64 systems

Post by Graf Zahl »

leileilol wrote:On the other hand........ those old GeforceFX-shaming mighty R300 cards degrade pretty badly, most likely can't age gracefully to 20. :(
Another problem with them is that they are from a time when the bugs in AMD's GL drivers really made them suck. Back then GZDoom had major issues with a fog bug in the Radeon driver that persisted for several hardware generations.
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Re: GZDoom Development for x86 & x64 systems

Post by Blzut3 »

sinisterseed wrote:The introduction of driver series... I think it was 500, dropped support for Kepler last year as well. Next up on the chopping block is the 900 line of cards, and the 750ti. If anything I expect driver series 600 to drop support for it, which isn't too far away.
It'll probably be 2024 maybe 2025 before Maxwell is dropped. The driver cuts happen roughly every 3 years (2008 (I think), 2012, 2014, 2018, 2021). I wouldn't be surprised if Pascal gets dropped at the same time since my understanding is that Maxwell and Pascal are fairly similar and usually the driver support drops are along major architectural changes. AMD's drops generally occur around the same times as well, although nvidia has typically been better about supporting legacy hardware for bug fixes. (Although obviously on Linux with open source drivers now AMD's long term support is much longer there.)
dpJudas wrote:If you're a Linux user with a preference for nvidia then keep in mind that their new open sourced kernel module only supports the very latest models. That means you will very quickly end up in the nasty part of legacy land as they transition. If you have the option, the best strategy right now is probably to wait for the 40 series announcement and then pick up a cheap 30 series card right after that.
The open source kernel driver doesn't help much with legacy land at this stage. Unless it ends up resulting in usable firmware for Nouveau, nvidia users are still subject to the proprietary driver's drop timeline. Although it should mean that those old drivers should be usable in newer kernels so there's that benefit I suppose.
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Re: GZDoom Development for x86 & x64 systems

Post by sinisterseed »

Blzut3 wrote:
sinisterseed wrote:The introduction of driver series... I think it was 500, dropped support for Kepler last year as well. Next up on the chopping block is the 900 line of cards, and the 750ti. If anything I expect driver series 600 to drop support for it, which isn't too far away.
It'll probably be 2024 maybe 2025 before Maxwell is dropped. The driver cuts happen roughly every 3 years (2008 (I think), 2012, 2014, 2018, 2021). I wouldn't be surprised if Pascal gets dropped at the same time since my understanding is that Maxwell and Pascal are fairly similar and usually the driver support drops are along major architectural changes. AMD's drops generally occur around the same times as well, although nvidia has typically been better about supporting legacy hardware for bug fixes. (Although obviously on Linux with open source drivers now AMD's long term support is much longer there.)
Indeed, and that's part of my guessing as well.

Which would mean that by the time the GTX line of cards gets relegated to legacy status, W10 will have also reached its EOL status, leaving only the RTX line of cards supported with *maybe* Pascal lasting for a little bit longer just before seeing the inevitable chopping block.
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Re: GZDoom Development for x86 & x64 systems

Post by Graf Zahl »

... which still doesn't make people abandon these cards. We still got 15% of users on non-Vulkan hardware, which by all accounts has been EOL'd by their manufacturers - some even using hardware that's 15-16 years old by now.

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