16-bit or 32-bit colours.

pink · Post by **pink** » Tue May 10, 2005 6:52 pm

I don't know if this is already in Zdoom or not or has been requested before, but I'll ask anyway.

If it isn't already possible, can either a 16-bit pallete or 32-bit pallete please be put into Zdoom. The Doom pallete is nice and all, but 256 colours is too limiting. I want to be able to put in images and not have them mangled by the Doom pallete.

Post by **Chris** » Tue May 10, 2005 8:35 pm

It has been asked before, and no it's not in ZDoom. IIRC, it will be done eventually, when Randy feels like taking the time to do it (it's not a simple task if you want to maintain nice framerates).

You can, however, try ZDoomGL to use hi/true-color images. Just put the image in as a 24-bit PNG (if you use 32-bit, the alpha channel may cause problems since it's not used) and away you go. ZDoom will even use the same PNG, but it'll be reduced to 256 colors when loaded.

pink · Post by **pink** » Wed May 11, 2005 4:37 am

I see. Well that's fine and all. I know implementing something like that into any program is a pain in the ass so I don't mind waiting awhile, but I don't really like ZdoomGL, so I'll wait the number of neccesary months/years for Randy to put it in Zdoom.

David Ferstat · Post by **David Ferstat** » Wed May 11, 2005 8:42 am

No offence, but don't hold your breath. Randy has said several times in the past that extending the Doom/Zdoom pallette beyond the current 256 colours is way down his to-do list.

Cutmanmike · Post by **Cutmanmike** » Wed May 11, 2005 8:45 am

One day...

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Wed May 11, 2005 9:26 am

David Ferstat wrote:No offence, but don't hold your breath. Randy has said several times in the past that extending the Doom/Zdoom pallette beyond the current 256 colours is way down his to-do list.

I can tell you this:

I recently dug out some old OpenGL rendering code and tried to merge it with ZDoom. And I can tell you: Getting the texture management to handle arbitrary palettes without remapping them and fonts to use the full color information instead of mapping them to the base palette was a real fight against the code because it assumes throughout that all it has is 8-bit data with only one global palette. Needless to say that this doesn't make it easy to use the actual PNG palette although GL doesn't restrict the number of colors.

I can't tell much about the rendering code itself but if it shows the same issues converting the software renderer to True Color will be some long and very tedious work and I can fully understand why Randy doesn't want to do it.

HobbsTiger1 · Post by **HobbsTiger1** » Wed May 11, 2005 9:30 am

Maybe 16-bit color would be nice (maybe). 32 bit color? No. Not needed or even a noticeably good improvement. For anything pre HL I think 32 bit color is silly, it detracts from the classicness of the gameplay, and doesn't always look good anyway.

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Wed May 11, 2005 10:04 am

HobbsTiger1 wrote:Maybe 16-bit color would be nice (maybe). 32 bit color? No. Not needed or even a noticeably good improvement.

16 bit with its extreme color banding looks much worse without dithering. This argument is pure nonsense. On modern graphics cards 16 bit isn't even as well supported as 32 bit so even the speed issue is probably only half as bad as you think.

But IMO it's a total waste of programming time to remove the 8-bit limit just to needlessly impose a 16 bit limit which is also obsolete by now. It it is done it should be done right.

For anything pre HL I think 32 bit color is silly, it detracts from the classicness of the gameplay, and doesn't always look good anyway.

That is just a purely idiotic point of view. Sorry to be blunt but when I play an OpenGL game I'd like to play it in the best quality I can have and for Quake2 it makes a huge difference in quality to see it all undithered or not. Games that lock themselves to 16 bit, restrict the use of texture filtering and all the other nonsense I have seen just piss me off.

HobbsTiger1 · Post by **HobbsTiger1** » Wed May 11, 2005 11:54 am

I know that view of mine is stupid, Graf. I must not have been thinking straight at the time (please note that all messages before 9:30 PM GMT are typed at school and I'm trying to do work for my compy classes and type at the same time, I know it's not an excuse, but...)

Anyway, what I had meant to say was that IMHO 16 or 32 bit color detracts from the Doom feeling of the game. If your playing a direct 3D port or GL port (I forgot what jDoom was so I put in D3D), thats just fine. In a port like ZDoom or, to go back further Boom, it just makes the game feel less like Doom than it already feels (And as pull up my notebook I find PRBoom, at least does have color support beyond 8 bit so don't remind me).

Also you mentioned Quake 2 as an example of how it should look in best quality. If that came out before Half-Life, sorry for the screwup. I never owned Q2, but thought it came out sometime soon after Half-Life. My apologies.

EDIT: Don't be sorry for being blunt. I can't stand it when people always "beat around the bush."

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Wed May 11, 2005 12:28 pm

HobbsTiger1 wrote: Anyway, what I had meant to say was that IMHO 16 or 32 bit color detracts from the Doom feeling of the game. If your playing a direct 3D port or GL port (I forgot what jDoom was so I put in D3D), thats just fine. In a port like ZDoom or, to go back further Boom, it just makes the game feel less like Doom than it already feels (And as pull up my notebook I find PRBoom, at least does have color support beyond 8 bit so don't remind me).

You won't talk like this anymore if you have seen a software renderer that doesn't lose color precision with diminishing light. The thing I like least about Doom is how the red stones turn brown when getting darker. In dark red they look much better! And of course a softer light gradient would be another positive thing.

pink · Post by **pink** » Wed May 11, 2005 12:34 pm

Like I said, I don't care how long I would have to wait for this, I don't care if it doesn't get put in at all. I'm just saying that it would be a nice feature is all.

Post by **Enjay** » Wed May 11, 2005 12:35 pm

pink wrote:I'm just saying that it would be a nice feature is all.

One of the few outstanding big nice features left to be put in.

7

HobbsTiger1 · Post by **HobbsTiger1** » Wed May 11, 2005 12:36 pm

@ Graf: Hmm, I'm willing to give it a shot. OK since I have Pre-Calculus next period and we are going to have a substitute I'll pull out my notebook and play PRBoom with the color settings turned up, and all the rest of the graphic options turned up (it's not as though anyone cares). I'll get back to you after I'm back home. Thats about the best I can do, aside from just giving up on my own opinion without my own proof I'm wrong.

Post by **Chris** » Wed May 11, 2005 2:48 pm

Anyway, what I had meant to say was that IMHO 16 or 32 bit color detracts from the Doom feeling of the game.

I don't think adding 16/32 bit color would remove 8-bit color, if you really wanted to retain the classic feel. If you want to see what 32-bit color could be like, start up ZDoomGL and use GL_NEAREST filtering with no anisotropy or antialiasing or other hardware effects.

HobbsTiger1 · Post by **HobbsTiger1** » Wed May 11, 2005 6:19 pm

After playing with higher color in PRBoom I can see whre the option of a higher color depth would be nice. I suppose it's a matter of personal preference whether or not you wan't a higher color depth. But as for me I'm going to stick with 8-bit no matter what shows up. I know it's stubborn and foolish, but I like it just the way it is and after giving it an honest shot I don't really like more color.

16-bit or 32-bit colours.

16-bit or 32-bit colours.

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