Re: Custom pronouns

Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:40 am

The entire thing here can only work for English. The gender rules in many other languages are so complex that supporting custom pronouns is virtually impossible. I think the contents of the macro table tell us enough.

In a perfect world I would have replaced these placeholders even in English to use the macros from the translation tables, but that cannot be done due to backwards compatibility.

Let's also please consider another issue here: Here in Germany we currently have a public discussion going on how to define politically correct language that considers all genders equally. IMO the entire thing goes in the totally wrong direction and seriously alienates a significant part of our society already but the proponents of this thing are pushing on relentlessly.
And to be blunt, it's really getting annoying so please forgive my hesitation to give in to this stuff. This all is a very, very sensitive matter, and regardless of how many people may appreciate such a thing, rest assured that others will do quite the opposite.

Regardless of how anyone may view it, it is a political statement, after all, and I prefer not to make any political statements in the software I produce.

Re: Custom pronouns

Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:53 am

Graf Zahl wrote:Regardless of how anyone may view it, it is a political statement, after all, and I prefer not to make any political statements in the software I produce.

I do generally feel this way, as well, and wonder just where we draw the line. Don't get me wrong - I am very pro-trans and trans-friendly but to be completely honest I think it's getting to a point where we're completely trivializing the meaning of the pronouns to begin with, which in effect I think diminishes the importance of the issue to start with - and that, I think, is far less supportive of those suffering than any of this would be intended to help.

The thing is - where do we draw the line? I am all for making people comfortable, but keep in mind the greater majority of folk - even trans folk - are quite happy with the he or she pronouns. I know there are intersex folk who do not identify as either gender and that is fine - but why can't we use existing words (he/she/it/they), rather than making up new ones? I'm seeing things like shi/hir/whatever and really - honestly - it's at the point now where I don't know WHAT to call you without offending you, and even if I know I am likely to forget and accidentally offend you without even intending to! Plus I'll go crazy trying to keep track of it all. It's adding complication to the language that my mind simply can't keep up with.

Before you hate me and call me a bigot for this, please at least try to understand where I am coming from, here. It feels like this just keeps changing, much too quickly at that, and I really am not convinced that all the changes are for the better. Let's at least focus on ending trans hate before we confuse ourselves about what to call each other! If I am wrong then at least help me to understand the issue and why separating gender and pronouns is so important, and why it's so important to make up arbitrary ones.

Re: Custom pronouns

Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:55 am

Tapwave wrote:My only concern is a translation one. English doesn't conjugate verbs according to gender, only perspective (and number, if we're talking Be), this isn't the case in French, where all verbs are conjugated according to gender and number.

Only the participles, and only if they are placed after what they should agree with. E.g. "j'ai pris mes lunettes", no agreement ; "mes lunettes sont prises", agreement.



The suggestion here feels kinda redundant. What does the "gender" option still do after that PR? Wouldn't it be simpler to rename "gender" to "pronoun" (and rename values accordingly)? Also not sure why the reflexive case was added, since it was not needed before.

Re: Custom pronouns

Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:04 am

Gez wrote:The suggestion here feels kinda redundant. What does the "gender" option still do after that PR? Wouldn't it be simpler to rename "gender" to "pronoun" (and rename values accordingly)? Also not sure why the reflexive case was added, since it was not needed before.


If the PR doesn't change it, the gender still affects the player sounds and ACS's gender check.

And this little gem from the Blood Bath Announcer:
Code:
         if (killee->player->userinfo.GetGender() == GENDER_MALE)
         { // Only males have scrotums to separate
            choice = &WorldKillSounds[rannum % 3];
         }
         else
         {
            choice = &WorldKillSounds[rannum & 1];
         }

:mrgreen:

Re: Custom pronouns

Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:45 am

Great feature imo and implementation seems sound to me. Concerns about non-English don't seem to need to apply since the PR explicitly disables this code if non-English.

Re: Custom pronouns

Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:21 am

Actually I do not think it's a good implementation.
A far better approach would be to implement a separation of user gender and player character gender first and once that's working think about a more flexible approach to define custom genders for the user.

Re: Custom pronouns

Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:50 am

Okay, the shortest unique match thing is in and I've decided to leave the user presets for a later PR.
All that's left is the language check, which, now that I think about it, is probably better left for when 'auto' is actually changed to mean something other than just english.

Gez wrote:The suggestion here feels kinda redundant. What does the "gender" option still do after that PR? Wouldn't it be simpler to rename "gender" to "pronoun" (and rename values accordingly)?

This PR, as the title implies, lets players use custom pronouns (i.e. neopronouns and plural they/them), which wasn't possible with just the gender setting. Renaming 'gender' and its values would've been pointless in that regard.

Gez wrote:Also not sure why the reflexive case was added, since it was not needed before.

It wasn't needed because '%hself' fit the hardcoded pronouns - the separate reflexive case is there because it doesn't fit all pronouns, and because some users would want a plural reflexive (i.e. Xselves instead of Xself).

Graf Zahl wrote:A far better approach would be to implement a separation of user gender and player character gender first and once that's working think about a more flexible approach to define custom genders for the user.

I don't get how that would be better? It just sounds like you want to tie the pronouns to a different setting, which is the opposite of what this PR does.

Re: Custom pronouns

Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:18 pm

Ultimately a gender is just a set of pronouns on the user side.
What I mean is, that the far more likely use case is not custom pronouns but that if you play a female character you want all output about the character to be female but a male player would still prefer to be addressed with male pronouns. Until this point no pronoun editing comes into play at all -in fact it is even undesirable because the only way to get what this user needs would be editing the pronouns instead of applying a predefined setting.

Pronoun editing - in whatever way - would be an option to apply to the user, once both genders are separated.

Re: Custom pronouns

Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:51 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:the far more likely use case is not custom pronouns but that if you play a female character you want all output about the character to be female but a male player would still prefer to be addressed with male pronouns.

.. which they can do by just.. selecting "he/him" in the player options menu?

Graf Zahl wrote:in fact it is even undesirable because the only way to get what this user needs would be editing the pronouns instead of applying a predefined setting.

.. and, again, there's nothing stopping them from selecting the preset they want. I don't get what point you're trying to make here.

Re: Custom pronouns

Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:09 pm

Seeing as there's no complaints about the code and all of the todo tasks are done (or postponed), I'll be marking the PR ready for review (as soon as I'm done rebasing it and testing it again).

Edit: aand I've just realized I forgot to add the previews. >_< Added.

Re: Custom pronouns

Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:54 pm

The effort certain people are putting into trying to find "objective" issues where there are none, due to knowing that saying how they actually feel would look awful, might be impressive if it wasn't so disheartening. My forum signature really couldn't be more relevant, huh?

Re: Custom pronouns

Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:06 pm

Samarai1000 wrote:saying how they actually feel would look awful

Would just like to note I vehemently resent the implication here.

8-)

Re: Custom pronouns

Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:13 pm

Samarai1000 wrote:The effort certain people are putting into trying to find "objective" issues where there are none, due to knowing that saying how they actually feel would look awful, might be impressive if it wasn't so disheartening.


Hey now, let's not start pointing fingers. Everyone's been very civil about this so far and Graf even explained how he would implement it differently. Most of the disagreement has been about that implementation and the one user who was purposefully being antagonistic was dealt with properly by the mods. Graf is famously open about his hot opinions so if he really felt that way I don't think he would've been hesitant to "tell you how he really feels" even if it was... not so PC.

There's definitely no harm in this feature and it looks pretty clean as it is now (to my relatively untrained eye anyway) but I could also see the potential complications of having a separate implementation for each language, since they mostly have completely different rules for these things than English. So there is a good-faith reason for debate here, especially since Graf's first language, presumably, is German rather than English, unlike most of us in this thread.

EDIT:
Rachael wrote:If, however, you are LOOKING for a reason to hate someone for disagreeing with you - then by definition you are no better than the bigots that have caused you so much harm in the first place. It turns you into the very thing you hate.

I just want to clarify that I do not agree with this at all. Samurai has good intentions as well as everyone else involved here. Everyone here is a good person, and I'd really hope this can be resolved without things getting nasty. :)
Last edited by TheMightyHeracross on Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Custom pronouns

Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:27 pm

Samarai1000 wrote:due to knowing that saying how they actually feel would look awful

Or maybe you're just reading too much into it.

Sometimes, what's stated to be a cigar is actually a cigar.

If, however, you are LOOKING for a reason to hate someone for disagreeing with you - then by definition you are no better than the bigots that have caused you so much harm in the first place. It turns you into the very thing you hate.

To say that there are no "objective" issues is patently false, and if you're going to go with the "you're either with us or against us" mentality then I will show you the door.

So for the love of everything that is good and right in the world, PLEASE have some sanity about this. The whole "agree with me 100% or die" mentality is utterly self-destructive and does far more harm than it ever has done good. It's definitively authoritarian by its very nature and it does not work when trying to build a community of tolerance and respect. All it ever does is alienate the people who probably would have been on your side to begin with.

Re: Custom pronouns

Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:11 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:Ultimately a gender is just a set of pronouns on the user side.
What I mean is, that the far more likely use case is not custom pronouns but that if you play a female character you want all output about the character to be female but a male player would still prefer to be addressed with male pronouns. Until this point no pronoun editing comes into play at all -in fact it is even undesirable because the only way to get what this user needs would be editing the pronouns instead of applying a predefined setting.

Pronoun editing - in whatever way - would be an option to apply to the user, once both genders are separated.

Player gender can effect the player's skin and sounds as well as pronouns, and can even effect mod-specific things if queried through ACS or ZScript. Having pronouns be separate is merely logical since there is no particular reason it's tied to the player gender.