Custom pronouns

Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:34 pm

Pull request: https://github.com/coelckers/gzdoom/pull/1426

Allows players to set their pronouns independently of their gender and adds support for neopronouns.

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To do:
  • (Done) Make pronoun field set the cvar to the shortest unique match (e.g. shorten "she/her/her/hers/herself/she's" to "she")
  • (Not doing this (yet)) Allow the user to save multiple sets of custom pronouns to avoid re-typing them each time (maybe outside the scope of this PR?)
  • (Might also leave for a later PR) Add a safer english check in case 'auto' is changed to actually use system language
Last edited by NicoTheGoat on Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Custom pronouns

Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:17 am

If you want my opinion - this is among those things we really do not need.

Re: Custom pronouns

Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:02 pm

Regardless of what happens, this is a great idea and feature imo.

Re: Custom pronouns

Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:05 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:If you want my opinion - this is among those things we really do not need.

Though I'm not exactly prominent on the scene, I'd actually like to disagree. Doom's community has naturally seemed to attract a large amount of LGBTQA+ people, from all walks of life. This will not bloat the code much, but make many people much happier, especially since the changes to the gender system occurred. This way you can still keep the translation compatibility with other languages while still giving people granular control over how they wish to be presented by the game. Obviously, as stated, it needs a bit more work, but there's not much to lose here. And it's far from a useless feature due to the previously mentioned diversity of the community.

Heck, you could actually just relegate gender to being something for mods to know what to represent head or player sprites as, rather than the way the game actually presents the player overall. Regardless, I don't see why this should be refused, even on the bounds of 'principle' where you're trying to avoid feature creep. It's something that people would like and want.
Last edited by Sytruan on Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Re: Custom pronouns

Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:08 pm

Sytruan wrote:
Graf Zahl wrote:If you want my opinion - this is among those things we really do not need.

Though I'm not exactly prominent on the scene, I'd actually like to disagree. Doom's community has naturally seemed to attract a large amount of LGBTQA+ people, from all walks of life. This will not bloat the code much, but make many people much happier, especially since the changes to the gender system occurred. This way you can still keep the translation compatibility with other languages while still giving people granular control over how they wish to be presented by the game. Obviously, as stated, it needs a bit more work, but there's not much to lose here. And it's far from a useless feature due to the previously mentioned diversity of the community.

Heck, you could actually just relegate gender to being something for mods to know what to represent head or player sprites as, rather than the way the game actually presents the player overall. Regardless, I don't see why this should be refused, even on the bounds of 'principle' where you're trying to avoid feature creep. It's something that people would like and want.


I agree. There is no reason to not include this, and it will make some people feel more welcome.

Re: Custom pronouns

Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:11 pm

Absolutely a good feature.

Re: Custom pronouns

Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:25 pm

This is a great idea and I fully support it.

Re: Custom pronouns

Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:45 pm

Not to repeat what others have said, but I'd feel stupid if I didn't voice my support for this feature. Really hope to see it accepted! Seeing something as simple as Hideous Destructor renaming "gender" to "pronouns" (as well as all the stuff it does to decouple the two further when it comes to player skins and sounds) was a really affirming change.

Re: Custom pronouns

Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:56 pm

Forgive my ignorance but isn't this a bit redundant when the menu already gives you male, female, and neutral (they/them) pronoun options? I don't think I've ever encountered anyone who uses anything else...
Last edited by TheMightyHeracross on Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Custom pronouns

Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:01 pm

Great idea.
Allowing people to be more comfortable with how they play games in GZDoom is an admirable goal, and this could also open the way to some less-hacky multi-character mods, too.
Last edited by silentw on Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Custom pronouns

Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:02 pm

TheMightyHeracross wrote:*snip*

No worries, some people use pronouns that simply aren't included in those options. Having a freeform system like this allows for them to be accommodated without their pronoun sets needing to be manually added, saving devs the time of adding them and users the headache of switching through each set one at a time to find the one they want.

Re: Custom pronouns

Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:19 pm

TheMightyHeracross wrote:Forgive my ignorance but isn't this a bit redundant when the menu already gives you male, female, and neutral (they/them) pronoun options? I don't think I've ever encountered anyone who uses anything else...

You probably have, just not noticed. I use neopronouns (ey/em specifically) as well as they/them.

Edit: Also, if it isn't obvious already, I definitely agree this should be a feature. Only reason I didn't add this as well when adding a fourth gender option is because I was worried it would get rejected.

Re: Custom pronouns

Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:13 pm

First off, I think that in concept the request is sound and generally a good idea. Personally my own needs are covered by existing features, but I do thing allowing people to express themselves in a comfortable way is almost never a bad thing, especially when the implementation is open-ended and customizable.

In the interest of constructive inquiry, this is a fairly niche feature, one which a silent majority will probably never touch. I can imagine not many mods will end up leveraging pronouns productively (or may even maliciously abuse the feature???). As a niche feature, how much dev time will be needed for maintainance? I imagine that adding it as-is only takes the push of a [Merge] button, so that's easy. One in, Is the implementation sufficiently future-proof and flexible for the majority of expected use cases? If necessary, are there any changes which would make it more maintainable for future changes to surrounding systems? Are there any additional features or work required to make it functionally useful and not just window dressing?

Again, I want to clarify I'm not against adding custom pronoun support. I think it's great for those that will use it. I just think these are things that should be discussed since if every niche feature was added without question then the codebase would become an unmaintainable mess, and I think everyone wants to avoid that. Honestly just browsing the code it looks fairly non-invasive to me, but then again I'm not an engine programmer.

8-)

Re: Custom pronouns

Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:15 pm

Caligari87 wrote:I can imagine not many mods will end up leveraging pronouns productively (or may even maliciously abuse the feature???).

Neither of these are particularly concerning.

Caligari87 wrote:As a niche feature, how much dev time will be needed for maintainance? I imagine that adding it as-is only takes the push of a [Merge] button, so that's easy.

Considering this code hasn't been touched in, like, a decade, I think it's pretty safe.

Caligari87 wrote:One in, Is the implementation sufficiently future-proof and flexible for the majority of expected use cases? If necessary, are there any changes which would make it more maintainable for future changes to surrounding systems?

This is still an incomplete submission as there are to-dos. However, outside of the 3 to-dos currently, no, it should be sufficient for any future cases.

Caligari87 wrote:Are there any additional features or work required to make it functionally useful and not just window dressing?

No, it's already functionally useful.

Re: Custom pronouns

Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:12 am

My only concern is a translation one. English doesn't conjugate verbs according to gender, only perspective (and number, if we're talking Be), this isn't the case in French, where all verbs are conjugated according to gender and number. I believe that is also the case in German? I may be wrong.

There's a silver lining: Having a definite pronoun fields means no weird replace hackery in the text anymore. Just drop a pronoun marker in there and bam! Done. The only thing you'd need to be mindful of is have some kind of switch for verbs if you need a "you" based conjugation or a 3rd person one.