Obligatory Legacy of Rust/ Nightdive Doom Port thread

[Nems]

I think it is a huge problem if the author of the spec does not even consider differing opinions and openly stating that as long as he and some of his friends are okay with it, it is not going to change.
A spec that doesn't at least acknowledge that not all ports are created equal is never going to work out. Far too much of it makes detailed assumptions about how the underlying engine is supposed to work that goes beyond "implementing Doom".

As an outside observer to all of this without any knowledge of the ins and outs of implementing code, I want to second this opinion. On top of that, Gooberman's attitude certainly puts the ID24 standard in a negative light, to the point that if I were to see it in the compatibility settings of a readme file while browsing idgames stuff, I'd pass it right up. I can only speak for myself on this, of course.

Yeah, more than just Gooberman worked on this new standard but all it takes is one bad apple to spoil the entire thing for a lot of folks. He's not doing the others who worked on this any favors with his attitude. :\

[Jekyll Grim Payne]

I'm seeing a lot of hostility and snide remarks in this thread. Maybe more from some than others but I'm not gonna single anyone out. I understand there's plenty of reason for frustration, but I'd like for everyone to remain civil.

Remember that you can be critical without making it personal. You can tell somebody that they've been inattentive, negative, or don't have a good enough understanding of something without turning that into a thinly-veiled insult.

[zrrion the insect]

I think I expressed the sentiment way earlier in the thread before we went off in the weeds talking about hack things (which I will say have my complete support.) that id24 doesn't really matter because slapping bethesda's name on it simply isn't enough to make people care about mapping/modding for it. I think folks can talk about the specifics of the standard and what's good/bad about it but at this point I think I'm of the opinion that any support for the standard should be left to id/bethesda to implement. Until then anyone wanting to see id24 content running in a source-port should make a compatibility patch.

Now, if the new port was open sourced in some way I'd have a completely different opinion here but as it stands it's a closed source standard developed in the face of like 25 years of open and collaborative development.

[Rachael]

Now, if the new port was open sourced in some way I'd have a completely different opinion here but as it stands it's a closed source standard developed in the face of like 25 years of open and collaborative development.

I really don't like to "ackshually" stuff, but I think it's worth pointing out that R&R is the base for the new port and the former is open sourced and already has the key parts of the implementation available. That being said, GZDoom's actor and rendering code is too divergent from the original for copy-paste to work, so it has to be reimplemented. The problem is we're being treated like it's our job to do that.

Most of the work presently being done to comply with the spec as much or as little as GZDoom does is being done by third-parties, not the core developers.

[Graf Zahl]

Let's not forget the sloppy specs for some parts. Due to poor implementation in the commercial port that wasn't even defined in the spec the intermission stuff PR is on hold for the time being and TBH, I have no real expectations that a stable working cross-port solution will be defined so the whole thing will end up a failure. It should never have been based on levelnums that get used implicitly.

[Gez]

It should never have been based on levelnums that get used implicitly.

That's a good point, I'll bring it up. Done!

[Phredreeke]

I share Graf's sentiment about ID24 being doomed (sorry for the bad pun!)

It's a catch 22 I think, ports aren't gonna implement it when there are no maps using it, and authors aren't gonna map for it until there's a port that actually implements it.

[Rachael]

It would have been fine if he kept the additions simple and earthbound. Like okay, "we need new intermission script, new this, new that", things that don't already exist in other ports that are easy to implement that the original Doom standard desperately needed - we would have all been cool with that no matter his personality or his quirks. (And besides, as I said before, those are more reflective of his state of mind than strictly the spec itself) Intermission scripts, UMAPINFO, music stuff, the new monsters and objects, things like that.

To be honest I think there will be a standard coming out of this but it won't be ID24. It will be the parts of it that everyone considered reasonable enough to implement on their own and all the other parts are just going to be abandoned and unimplemented. But the spec as a unit (in its unbreakable entirety) is likely not going to happen in all ports.

[Doom64hunter]

I'm starting to question whether Legacy of Rust was really spearheaded by Xaser, as the Doom Wiki claims it to be:

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/1 ... ee-within/

So, Finland locked down thanks to the coronas. Within a couple of days, I had a Doom level editor out. Decided to challenge myself by making a vanilla compatible map. And then got so inspired that I had a grand idea: What about if I got a bunch of game developers to join in and make it a megawad? Make it a bit of a present to the people who keep buying our games which keeps us employed; and besides, so many of us were inspired by Doom to get in to the industry so give something back to the game.

I'm going to start chasing up my own industry contacts, but short story: If you're interested in contributing and have either shipped a game or are currently/have been employed in the industry then shout out in this thread. Kaiser is conditionally interested in contributing an early-slot map (the main hurdle will be whether this becomes a project or just remains a forum thread) so join in and sip a blood mocha or two.

It's not every day that you see a Doom project thread where a person specifically asks for game industry veterans to contact them.

Given that the map shown is E2M3 from Legacy of Rust, and E1M1 being made by Kaiser, it really does seem like "Demon Workers Unite" and "Legacy of Rust" may be one and the same. Thus the whole thing may really be GooberMan's initiative.

[Redneckerz]

I'm starting to question whether Legacy of Rust was really spearheaded by Xaser, as the Doom Wiki claims it to be:

Thus the whole thing may really be GooberMan's initiative.

So that''s one map. Okay?
It is know that both Goober and Xaser did the grunt work, so whynot:
- Ask Xaser
- If your assumption is true, let me correct it
- If your assumption is false, post it here

[Phredreeke]

I think it's more likely that Gooberman simply recycled a map from a megawad that didn't get off the ground.

[yum13241]

Most of the work presently being done to comply with the spec as much or as little as GZDoom does is being done by third-parties, not the core developers.

I have a sneaking suspicion that ports will just implement what they feel like, and map authors are going to end up saying "this map requires the official port of Doom to KEX". In other words, the Windows Vista of Doom specs.

Yeah, more than just Gooberman worked on this new standard but all it takes is one bad apple to spoil the entire thing for a lot of folks. He's not doing the others who worked on this any favors with his attitude. :\

It's not Gooberman's tone that's the problem, more so of his demands, from what I'm hearing.

we went off in the weeds talking about hack things (which I will say have my complete support.)

#FreeDoomFromHacks (the hashtag is a fucking joke at this point I already said what I needed to say, that being that doing things the way we've been doing them "just because" is stupid (relying on limited numbers), however, the opposite is also true (we don't really need to string-ify everything just yet, The idea was that maybe with a new spec, we could remove some unwanted baggage?) Hopefully that was enough to not get me banned one tick after I make this post.

It should never have been based on levelnums that get used implicitly.

What are those "levelnums"? It is impossible to find the actual spec document on any search engine, rather, one must rummage through forum threads and browser history.

[Professor Hastig]

Most of the work presently being done to comply with the spec as much or as little as GZDoom does is being done by third-parties, not the core developers.

I have a sneaking suspicion that ports will just implement what they feel like, and map authors are going to end up saying "this map requires the official port of Doom to KEX". In other words, the Windows Vista of Doom specs.

I don't see the latter happen. There's just not enough there to warrant forfeiting port support for minor features.

Yeah, more than just Gooberman worked on this new standard but all it takes is one bad apple to spoil the entire thing for a lot of folks. He's not doing the others who worked on this any favors with his attitude. :\

It's not Gooberman's tone that's the problem, more so of his demands, from what I'm hearing.

It's kind of both. He seems to have made up his mind about what the spec should be and doesn't handle being challenged quite well. The spec contains too many bad things and nothing seems to happen about it.

we went off in the weeds talking about hack things (which I will say have my complete support.)

#FreeDoomFromHacks (the hashtag is a fucking joke at this point I already said what I needed to say, that being that doing things the way we've been doing them "just because" is stupid (relying on limited numbers), however, the opposite is also true (we don't really need to string-ify everything just yet, The idea was that maybe with a new spec, we could remove some unwanted baggage?) Hopefully that was enough to not get me banned one tick after I make this post.

Freeing Doom from hacks is an unattainable dream. There are people out there who seem to exploit every inane quirk of the engine in some way, often achieving things that can be done much better.

It should never have been based on levelnums that get used implicitly.

What are those "levelnums"? It is impossible to find the actual spec document on any search engine, rather, one must rummage through forum threads and browser history.

It's just an internal index. Emphasis on 'internal'. Some features rely on this number but they way it works was never officially defined and the KEX implementation contradicts how ports implemented their equivalent feature.
It could have been easily avoided if the intermission lump had made the map name a mandatory field of each definition section, but right now the feature is useless and if you look at GZDoom's Github repo you will see a PR for this being stuck in 'draft' mode because nobody knows how to do it right.

[Rachael]

The reasonable parts of the spec are likely to be (if not already been) done in most ports. Whatever everyone decides to adopt will probably be the standard going forward. Everything else will remain niche until actual honest two-way conversations are more welcomed.

[Xterra]

Well others do, especially when you post to the Scripting forum because you can't get something to work. If you're posting code that's Brutal Doom levels of complex, just know that even Sarge indents.

I don't appreciate the implications you're making there. For one, I do indent my code, and if I have to go on the scripting forum I do make damn good and sure to explain what does what.
I'm not Sarge. Please don't lump me in with him.