AvP 2.0 - JDREDALERT's Edition WIP Is Out For Testing !!

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Valherran
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Re: AvP 2.0 - JDREDALERT's Edition - New Poll Added!!

Post by Valherran »

No testing versions so far. We should probably wait until the finished product. It's going to be a blast, there's a lot of effort invested on it - i can guarantee that. But releasing unfinished builds may spoil the surprises...
Guess I will wait then. heh
Basically the Praetorian is a Queen-to-be xeno and it evolves into a Queen if the current Queen dies and there is no Empress to fill the gap. I don't know about the "rogue" part of the praetorians. In the comics when a praetorian leaves its hive it's for evolving into a Queen and start a new hive that is an extension of the old hive and not in competition with it.
Praetorians are sort of semi-canon. They probably never appeared in films (the only potential apperance would be the AVP2: Requiem), so their life cycle is not set in stone. I based the temporary-hive-exclusion part on Monolith's AVP2 description of them - this is meant as a Darwinian trial for a would-be Praetorian to prove he is strong enough to survive potential threats to the hive. I never read the comics.
Praetorians have never been seen on film because it is an expanded universe creation, meaning it was only made for the video games and comics and not the novels. The Praetorian strain is one of the final strains the base Xeno life-cycle (species XX121 or something like that), and they primarily serve as bodyguards of the Queen or Empress. Should something happen to their Queen or Empress, or the need to colonize arises, a Praetorian can evolve into a Queen to meet such tasks. In the movies and official novels, you usually see a Queen, lots of Drones, some Warriors, some Runners, but no Praetorians. Why? Because the Xeno colonies don't last long enough to evolve Praetorians. It takes time for a fresh established colony to evolve the strains within the young Queen's genetic system.
Endless123
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Re: AvP 2.0 - JDREDALERT's Edition - New Poll Added!!

Post by Endless123 »

Valherran wrote:Praetorians have never been seen on film because it is an expanded universe creation, meaning it was only made for the video games and comics and not the novels. The Praetorian strain is one of the final strains the base Xeno life-cycle (species XX121 or something like that), and they primarily serve as bodyguards of the Queen or Empress. Should something happen to their Queen or Empress, or the need to colonize arises, a Praetorian can evolve into a Queen to meet such tasks. In the movies and official novels, you usually see a Queen, lots of Drones, some Warriors, some Runners, but no Praetorians. Why? Because the Xeno colonies don't last long enough to evolve Praetorians. It takes time for a fresh established colony to evolve the strains within the young Queen's genetic system.
I couldn't explain it better than that, thanks for the clarifications :)
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jdredalert
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Re: AvP 2.0 - JDREDALERT's Edition - New Poll Added!!

Post by jdredalert »

I think i would go a little bit farther and say that they didn't included Praetorians so far in the new movies in order to avoid confusions with the more casual audience. People that enjoyed the movies but never gone into the expanded universe. I believe that it would cause reactions like "What...? Two Queens? What is that, a Princess?".
shotfan
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Re: AvP 2.0 - JDREDALERT's Edition - New Poll Added!!

Post by shotfan »

I think that Praetorians have been not devised before Alien 4 was made. What was their first appearance, the Rebellion's first AVP? Maybe that is the reason they were not used in film.
As for the confused audience - the prominent crest could actually point to Praetorian being a part of a Alien "royal familiy", along with the Queen. If they can molt into new Queens if succession is needed, that would make them Alien princesses, indeed. Nothing nonsensical, I think. At least they would be easier to understand than Newborn. (and flimmakers probably would be quick to implement a new Alien type to make things interesting - vide Queen in Aliens, Runner in Alien 3, Newborn in Alien 4, Predalien (have we not seen him before somewhere?) in AVP2)
Endless123
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Re: AvP 2.0 - JDREDALERT's Edition - New Poll Added!!

Post by Endless123 »

shotfan wrote:I think that Praetorians have been not devised before Alien 4 was made. What was their first appearance, the Rebellion's first AVP? Maybe that is the reason they were not used in film.
As for the confused audience - the prominent crest could actually point to Praetorian being a part of a Alien "royal familiy", along with the Queen. If they can molt into new Queens if succession is needed, that would make them Alien princesses, indeed. Nothing nonsensical, I think. At least they would be easier to understand than Newborn. (and flimmakers probably would be quick to implement a new Alien type to make things interesting - vide Queen in Aliens, Runner in Alien 3, Newborn in Alien 4, Predalien (have we not seen him before somewhere?) in AVP2)
In the AvP 2010 the Predator campaign has a miniboss in the ruins - the part that looks like an arena - that is a Praetorian. if it's not one it's really it really similar
Image
Image

However i never seen one in any of the movies. In AvP 2: requiem it's a Predalian which is a predator/alien xenomorph. It's a shame because it would had made a good story with it. Who know they might make a cameo in Prometheus 2 :lol:
shotfan
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Re: AvP 2.0 - JDREDALERT's Edition - New Poll Added!!

Post by shotfan »

He is a Praetorian, that is for sure. Also,the Alien PC from that game (Specimen 6) molts into one after her campaign (its a female supposedly, but we all know how strangely gender works for Aliens), and eventually also becomes a Queen.
Last edited by shotfan on Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Endless123
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Re: AvP 2.0 - JDREDALERT's Edition - New Poll Added!!

Post by Endless123 »

shotfan wrote:He is a Praetorian, that is for sure. Also,the Alien PC from that game (Specimen 6) molts into one after his campaign, and eventually also becomes a Queen.
Yeah i also learned recently that if a normal drone or warrior is alone without any queen or empress nearby it can evlove into a queen and start a hive (the end of the Alien campaign in AvP 2010 show this).



Advance the video to 5:05 to see the escape and the transformation of the drone/warrior into a queen. They don't show the upper side of the alien skull that's way i presume it's a drone or a warrior. It also possible that it evolves with time into a praetorian then evolve into a queen.
shotfan
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Re: AvP 2.0 - JDREDALERT's Edition - New Poll Added!!

Post by shotfan »

Bug report: when playing the PSX Doom wad in conjunction with the PSX Doom version of your mod, I cannot change weapons on will, be it by weapon slot buttons or next/previous weapon buttons. So this practically limits viable gameplay only to Praetorian.
Endless123
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Re: AvP 2.0 - JDREDALERT's Edition - New Poll Added!!

Post by Endless123 »

shotfan wrote:Bug report: when playing the PSX Doom wad in conjunction with the PSX Doom version of your mod, I cannot change weapons on will, be it by weapon slot buttons or next/previous weapon buttons. So this practically limits viable gameplay only to Praetorian.
You don't need to load the PSX Doom wad to play the PSX AvP version because it's a merged version. In short it's the original PSX Doom merged with AvP 1.3 so no need to load the wad and this mod. Just load the PSX AvP 1.3r2 and you will be good to go with all classes ;)
shotfan
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Re: AvP 2.0 - JDREDALERT's Edition - New Poll Added!!

Post by shotfan »

Thanks, it helped. Now it works with no problems :)

Yet, I have another few things to report:
- Marine is completely silent, with not even pain sounds. Seems bizzare next to Predator and Praetorian and their voice effects.
- Marine and Predator spill their blood even when it is only their armour/shield that actually receives damage.
- If you press a flashlight toggle as Predator or Praetorian, you will activate an annoying flashlight activation sound that repeats every second until you complete the level or reload the game.
- How much does Booster enhance Praetorian's vitality? After taking one at the start of the level, I cleared E4M2 on Acid Spitter by just running around with arms flailing wildly, and I beat even the Queen.
- Why Predator's laugh restores his energy supply?
- Some kind of damage effect is needed when energy shield takes damage – like flashes or a sound of electrical discharge. Right now is hard to notice when you take hits to your shield, and when you are low on health you would prefer to know when you are in danger.

Other things regarding Predator that keep me wondering:
- What is the Health Shard, exactly? A unit of supplies for Predator’s Medicomp? And how you acquire one? I frequently see that I still have 3 HS, even if I used one or two just a few minutes ago.
- What does Hacking do?
- Where does the freezing aspect of Combi-Stick come from?
Endless123
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Re: AvP 2.0 - JDREDALERT's Edition - New Poll Added!!

Post by Endless123 »

shotfan wrote:Thanks, it helped. Now it works with no problems :)

Yet, I have another few things to report:
- Marine is completely silent, with not even pain sounds. Seems bizzare next to Predator and Praetorian and their voice effects.
- Marine and Predator spill their blood even when it is only their armour/shield that actually receives damage.
- If you press a flashlight toggle as Predator or Praetorian, you will activate an annoying flashlight activation sound that repeats every second until you complete the level or reload the game.
- How much does Booster enhance Praetorian's vitality? After taking one at the start of the level, I cleared E4M2 on Acid Spitter by just running around with arms flailing wildly, and I beat even the Queen.
- Why Predator's laugh restores his energy supply?
- Some kind of damage effect is needed when energy shield takes damage – like flashes or a sound of electrical discharge. Right now is hard to notice when you take hits to your shield, and when you are low on health you would prefer to know when you are in danger.

Other things regarding Predator that keep me wondering:
- What is the Health Shard, exactly? A unit of supplies for Predator’s Medicomp? And how you acquire one? I frequently see that I still have 3 HS, even if I used one or two just a few minutes ago.
- What does Hacking do?
- Where does the freezing aspect of Combi-Stick come from?
The PSX AvP version had some issues already and they are basically the same as for the regular AvP version.

- The sounds problems however never been present as far as i know and knowing that the most recent gzdoom build has some sound issues i guess the problem originate from gzdoom.

- The flashlight sound looping after trying to use the flashlight while playing the Predator or the Praetorian is a bug that will be fixed with the next build.

- The Predator's laugh was designed to give a small amount of energy per use in the AvP and PSX AvP builds, it's been removed for the 2.0 build.

- Damage to Predator's shield never had sound because it was primarly designed to be some kind of "delayer" before the cloak turns off while walking on liquids. In other words it's more like a timer to show you if you are close to uncloak or not more than a real shield. That's why it never had sound and i'm not planning to add any because it would be too annoying to constantly have a sound playing each time the predator receives a hit.

- The health shard system is the same as in AvP 2(the game) and is based on the amount of energy remaining. Each use takes 300 energy points and can be used up to 3 times if the energy reserve was full. Just like the shard system is AvP 2 if you don't have enough energy(less than 300) then you can't use a health shard. It's also without any delay and can be used anytime as long as you have more than 300 energy points in reserve.

- The hacking gives all the keys to open locked doors but for a limited amount of time. If you have collected keys before using it you will loose all the keys. however it's no big deal because it only takes 100 energy points to hack doors so loosing the keys after each use is not a problem.

- The freezing of the combi-stick come from the ice-based shockwave after the initial hit. I'm still wondering if i should remove it or not.

I hope it answers all your interrogations. Feel free to ask if you have more :)

Thanks for your comments :)
shotfan
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Re: AvP 2.0 - JDREDALERT's Edition - New Poll Added!!

Post by shotfan »

I got most of my answers, thanks. But few things need to be specified further:
Endless123 wrote: The PSX AvP version had some issues already and they are basically the same as for the regular AvP version.

- The sounds problems however never been present as far as i know and knowing that the most recent gzdoom build has some sound issues i guess the problem originate from gzdoom.
Well, but Marine is silent even outside PSX Doom wad. I cannot hear him either in Doom 1 wad. Does he have any voice sound effects?
- Damage to Predator's shield never had sound because it was primarly designed to be some kind of "delayer" before the cloak turns off while walking on liquids. In other words it's more like a timer to show you if you are close to uncloak or not more than a real shield. That's why it never had sound and i'm not planning to add any because it would be too annoying to constantly have a sound playing each time the predator receives a hit.
Actually the shield can take large amount of punishment before it gets disabled. It makes combat quite easy for Predator. I would advise to make a significant delay before it starts recharging from damage (around 10 seconds at least).
- The freezing of the combi-stick come from the ice-based shockwave after the initial hit. I'm still wondering if i should remove it or not.
This not what I meant, but I did not express myself precisely enough anyway. I am asking if Combi-Stick freezes targets in any other Predator-related media?
Last edited by shotfan on Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
Endless123
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Re: AvP 2.0 - JDREDALERT's Edition - New Poll Added!!

Post by Endless123 »

Well, but Marine is silent even outside PSX Doom wad. I cannot hear him either in Doom 1 wad. Does he has any voice sound effects?
PSX AvP and AvP mods are both using the same sounds for the marine class. It's odd you can't hear them and as i said it could be due to the recent changes in the gzdoom build. However i will investigate this matter just in case i forgot to add something in the sound def file. I will keep you update on this one.
Actually the shield can take large amount of punishment before it gets disabled. It makes combat quite easy for Predator. I would advise to make a significant delay before it starts recharging form damage (around 10 seconds at least).
Don't worry it won't be the case in 2.0. The Predator class will still be the overpowered class it always been but every assets would have to be earned and not granted. The only way for the Predator class to gain ammo and weapons would be to kill other predators with a slim chance them to drop something. It means the Predator will be starting with only the blades, the stealth generator and the accumulator(the staff replenishing energy) - that is if the player don't use any of the build-in cheats.
This not what I meant, but I did not express myself precisely enough anyway. I am asking if Combi-Stick freezes targets in any other Predator-related media?
No that's something i added myself just for fun.

EDIT : I found the problem with the pain sounds of the marine - it turned out it was because of 3 things i forgot to do.

#1 - The marine player didn't have any soundclass created for him - fixed - soundclass created
#2 - Since there were no soundclass previously created for the Marine none have been assigned to the marine in the marine lump - Fixed - the marine now has a soundclass assigned to him
#3 - The marine didn't have any normal painchance trigger - Fixed.

So it turns out you were right, thanks for pointing that out. Now that this bug is fixed the 2.0 if there is any other bug you find don't hesitate to tell me :D
shotfan
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Re: AvP 2.0 - JDREDALERT's Edition - New Poll Added!!

Post by shotfan »

Endless123 wrote:
Actually the shield can take large amount of punishment before it gets disabled. It makes combat quite easy for Predator. I would advise to make a significant delay before it starts recharging form damage (around 10 seconds at least).
Don't worry it won't be the case in 2.0. The Predator class will still be the overpowered class it always been but every assets would have to be earned and not granted. The only way for the Predator class to gain ammo and weapons would be to kill other predators with a slim chance them to drop something. It means the Predator will be starting with only the blades, the stealth generator and the accumulator(the staff replenishing energy) - that is if the player don't use any of the build-in cheats.

Is the accumulator a passive item that always regenerates energy 'in the background', or something you can equip?
The main way to balance Predator would be to limit his energy availability. Make Plasma Caster consume at least 100 energy points per shot minimum, Plasma Blaster that depletes at least 20 EP per shot, slow down energy regeneration considerably, add a delay between any time the energy supply gets reduced and when its recharge starts. Also, Cloak should use much more energy per second. And maybe add energy consumption for special vision modes.
Regarding the weapons, it is a good idea to have Predator start only with Wristblades, since even those are quite powerful. Speargun is super powerful, it feels like a subtle rocket launcher in terms of damage, and has plenty of ammo laying around. Likewise, the Plasma Blaster is pretty much a Plasmagun, and uses next to no energy to fire! Very close to EZ mode. And of course there is a Plasma Caster with seeking projectiles... but since it is Predator's counterpart to BFG, it is justified.

(I have a lot of other notes, but I have to double-check them, so I will post them sometime later, maybe in another day)
EDIT : I found the problem with the pain sounds of the marine - it turned out it was because of 3 things i forgot to do.

#1 - The marine player didn't have any soundclass created for him - fixed - soundclass created
#2 - Since there were no soundclass previously created for the Marine none have been assigned to the marine in the marine lump - Fixed - the marine now has a soundclass assigned to him
#3 - The marine didn't have any normal painchance trigger - Fixed.

So it turns out you were right, thanks for pointing that out. Now that this bug is fixed the 2.0 if there is any other bug you find don't hesitate to tell me :D
No problem :)
Well, I am still not sure about Praetorian's Booster. For Predator it restores energy and health, and also gives a damage multiplier. For Marine, it refills health along with armour. But when playing as Alien, the Booster makes you unkillable! It feels like you got a permanent invulnerability (even your health bar is frozen)! Is it supposed to be this way, or is it another bug?
Endless123
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Re: AvP 2.0 - JDREDALERT's Edition - New Poll Added!!

Post by Endless123 »

Is the accumulator a passive item that always regenerates energy 'in the background', or something you can equip?
The main way to balance Predator would be to limit his energy availability. Make Plasma Caster consume at least 100 energy points per shot minimum, Plasma Blaster that depletes at least 20 EP per shot, slow down energy regeneration considerably, add a delay between any time the energy supply gets reduced and when its recharge starts. Also, Cloak should use much more energy per second. And maybe add energy consumption for special vision modes.
Regarding the weapons, it is a good idea to have Predator start only with Wristblades, since even those are quite powerful. Speargun is super powerful, it feels like a subtle rocket launcher in terms of damage, and has plenty of ammo laying around. Likewise, the Plasma Blaster is pretty much a Plasmagun, and uses next to no energy to fire! Very close to EZ mode. And of course there is a Plasma Caster with seeking projectiles... but since it is Predator's counterpart to BFG, it is justified.

(I have a lot of other notes, but I have to double-check them, so I will post them sometime later, maybe in another day)
- The accumulator is the staff-like device the predator use to refil the energy supply.

- Most of your points about the energy management have been adressed already. The regeneration rate of the energy is now extremely low and is only increased with boosters that are now even more rare than in 1.3(and will completely dissapear if the honnor system is approved by the voters at the poll). Also no more free ammo for the speargun and mini-missile launcher because as i said before the only way the predator will gain ammo and weapons will be by killing other predators and even so it's not a guarantied drop. As for the Plasma Blaster using 20 EP it's not a viable energy consumating rate because it will make the weapon almost useless because, among other things, it's the weakest weapon of the predator in term of damage dealt per shot. To counter balance i would have to increase the damage per shot and i don't want this weapon to be OP like the Plasma Caster. It would have be a good thing with the old energy management but with the new one it's not an option.

- If you played any of the AvP games and some of the standalone games like Concrete Jungle the cloak isn't consuming that much energy. In fact it's the least consuming device in term of energy and since this mod is vastly inspired by the AvP 2 game for the energy management it won't be a good thing to accelerate the energy the cloak uses per second. Furthermore in AvP 2010 the energy the clock consume is practically non-existant.

- Having the vision modes consume energy is something i had done before and i had removed for practicallity reasons but it's not impossible i bring it back for tactical reasons. I might have to start a poll for this one because i'm sure some would not want this to be back while others like you would want it back.

- About the speargun being OP : In all AvP games the speargun was featured it was capable to kill almost any enemies with 1 or 2 shots except for the hard-skinned enemies like the Queen. Even the synthetics could be killed with one shot if aimed at the head(in AvP 2 the head gets ripped off the body and pinned to the nearest wall, that's how powerful that weapon is) and now that there is no more ammo spawning on the ground for it the occasions to use it would be more strategic. Also unlike the 1.3 version the 2.0 while being a bit more powerful no longer has it's damage multiplied by the boosters and no longer has it's maximun ammo increased by grabing a backpack is is constantly limited to 50 ammo and never more that 50 - the backpack is exclusively used by the Marine class now - in fact everything that is spawning on the map (with the only exception of the ally beacon) can only be grabbed by the Marine class.
Well, I am still not sure about Praetorian's Booster. For Predator it restores energy and health, and also gives a damage multiplier. For Marine, it refills health along with armour. But when playing as Alien, the Booster makes you unkillable! It feels like you got a permanent invulnerability (even your health bar is frozen)! Is it supposed to be this way, or is it another bug?
- You still can be killed if you take too much damage by being attacked by 1 or 2 predators. The only effect of the boosters on the Praetorian in term of health is it accelerate the natural health regeneration and of course the more boosters the faster the health regeneration is. However in 2.0 it's been drastically changed because as i mentioned before the boosters are really rare now and the likeliness to gather enough boosters in one map to be invincible is practically non-existant and if the Predator's honnor system is approved a similar system would be implimented for the Praetorian and will be usable on-demand - in fact it's still in testing and will be ready for full implimentation if the poll is positive.

- The damage multiplier is more reasonable for the Predator because in 2.0 it will only affect melee weapons(blades and combi-stick and melee attack of the smart disc) instead of having an effect on all weapons.
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