Hideous Destructor 4.10.0b

[Caligari87]

This is certainly going to make things awkward for the otherwise family-friendly Demolition Ranch.

[AvzinElkein]

Which games is this mod compatible for?

[Caligari87]

Just Doom, as far as I'm aware.

[Matt]

There's some really old Heretic stuff in there but it's totally unsupported and only left in on request.

Otherwise, Doom, D2, Final Doom. Hypothetically runs in Freedoom but the assets don't match.

[Bigger C]

Huh. Teaches me to make the dang thing all grey and test everything on a similarly coloured floor...

In other news, one way or another, this has the potential to slow down HD development.

Grass grows, birds fly, Youtube makes contentious decision again.

I hope Twitch takes the throne and actually does the job right. Or even Pornhub. Don't care who as long as they're better at owning their mistakes than Youtube.

Rewind 2017 was a last straw for me.

[mumblemumble]

With the recent talk of realism, i want to suggest something : reworking fire.

Fire has been poorly done in this mod compared to other things , from inventory, recoil, health, ect. Its, as far as I understand, a dice roll if fire damage hits, and fire is always extremely dangerous.

Hear me out guys. I've worked in foundries and done welding, and dealing with molton metal, while dangerous, doesn't instantly turn your hand into ash if it gets near. In fact, it takes a fair bit of time before heat can go through leather to burn, a few seconds actually.

Likewise, you can put out candles with fingers, dip a cold hand in molton lead, and thick clothes can be actively on fire with no harm to the user for several moments. (i know one guy had his pants burn off welding and he was unharmed)

Key points is time to heat, heat source, smolder point, flash point, insulation, fuel amount, heat conductivity, ventilation, and duration of heat.

For instance, once while welding, i messed up torch welding and sprayed my face (eyes were safe) with molton steel. One would think I'd be horrifically maimed, but I was fine, the steel just felt like warm, heavy water. This was safe (if scary) because the steel (roughly 1000 degrees when it hit me) had very, very little time to transfer heat, only getting it to the temperature of a hot bath, and not roasted meat. There was also another time i had to haul freshly plasma cut parts with leather gloves, and despite being around the 700 degree range, and my gloves started smoking (and my hands even hurt) i was uninjured, again, because my flesh didn't hit cooking point.

I figure fire might be able to be reworked, with a heat stat that goes up and down based on things like proximity to torches, physical exertion, weapons fire, and (obviously) fire projectiles, taking time to heat up / cool down, and armor / skin would have its smolder / flash point, as well as needing to deal with the ambient heat (ceramic is the same material used in metal pouring "crucibles" for instance, and is a poor conductor, getting hot slowly, and cooling slowly)

I'm not sure how you could balance it, but this would be an interesting way to do it, giving armor a 100% block on damage from weaker fire attacks occasionally (unless hitting the face) but armor quickly burns and smolders armor, but being coated in excessive fuel obviously would act like right now, as the heat source is constant, except a brief moment lacking pain as the body heats to cooking point.

Being naked (or clothed? Idk) would have a higher chance to light on fire due to normal fabric, but would also allow quicker cooling off than being in a kevlar vest oven.

And ceramic, as mentioned, would be a good heat shield to an extent, unless it overheated, and the ceramic literally melted your skin to it, at best cooking your organs, at worst, giving you a very slow death of bleeding, infection, cell collapse and tissue tearing

I know its probably a lot, and maybe too much to suggest, but I can't help but complain. Fire has always been far less elegant mechanically than any other elements in hd, at least in my opinion... And if the tb could work like this too it would be sickly enjoyable. And if imps were less of a dice roll on getting hit if you are fine, or nearly die.

Just something to consider, plus this could make lost souls terrifying

[Matt]

That'll be hilarious if Pornhub became the world's generic video hosting service and 99% of its content was innocuous stuff but it just kept using its name!

Mumbles: This morning as I was driving to work I was thinking if I should try scriptifying the imps again. I thought I would just be doing a simple conversion as much as possible and sticking with incremental changes (the attempt to reinvent the imps has always ended with nothing changing). Your comment came right in time.

This may take some time before I publish any overhaul though, and will very likely need to wait until after the next release.

[mumblemumble]

Yep. Glad you like the idea.

To recap a few ideas for this to work mechanically.

-heat indexes for projectiles, players, or anything else you can be arsed doing
-smolder / flash points for different materials (smoldering im just using as a general term for heat causing damage. Obviously a poor hit would be almost pointless, as even regular clothing can briefly be exposed to flame without damage )
-insulation from heat from armor
-ambient heat from hot armor
-fuel coating a player and burning
-heat conductivity. In metallurgy, for instance, gold, and copper heats VERY VERY FAST and cools VERY VERY FAST while ceramic, steel, and other materials heat slower, and cool slower. Density also matters, larger density means slower both ways.
-heat effecting strength of material. Metal is forged with heat, and swords are heated as they are softer when hot. I suspect hot kevlar would also rip apart easily. Metal would also be easier to tear or dent when hot.


Honestly this excites me a lot because i think this has potential of making the tb a hell of a lot more interesting... Making barons hot enough their blood catches on fire and they die? Fun. Mancubi becoming their own funeral pyre? Even better, and rather fitting with the lore of them used as a tool to demoralize. The prospect that more monsters would be vulnerable to fire, even if only in gross amounts, is great.

By the way, i also had another idea... Any chance we could make a jerry rigged trap with a battery using 2 empty clips as a conduit, functioning as a grossly jerry rigged, lethal tazer? High electric currents obviously instantly melt steel, as the local point of ignition is grossly hotter than the melting point of steel, enough to take 80 f steel and make it 3000 f steel in the blink of an eye. This is steel mind you, so imagine flesh...a baubin walking over it would probably have its brain fried, and pop like a microwaved hotdog if left on the current, as well as the electrical arcs would have a possibility of combusting the battery into a nasty fireball that burns up anything near it. And electrical fires burn insanely hot. You could even use used zm magazines (assuming its ferrous metal magazines) to make it also function like a Jerry rigged claymore, as the electrical charge and amprage would ignite the bullets shooting them through the magazine. Actually, i imagine you could do this with the tripmine setup.

Also, is ceramic just raw ceramic? Seems a better option would be ceramic with a metalic casing. This is what traffic pillars are used for, steel pipes filled with concrete. The mix of flexible metal, encasing brittle concrete, makes it extremely resilient to impact.

[MaxRideWizardLord]

With the recent talk of realism, i want to suggest something : reworking fire.

Fire has been poorly done in this mod compared to other things , from inventory, recoil, health, ect. Its, as far as I understand, a dice roll if fire damage hits, and fire is always extremely dangerous.

Hear me out guys. I've worked in foundries and done welding, and dealing with molton metal, while dangerous, doesn't instantly turn your hand into ash if it gets near. In fact, it takes a fair bit of time before heat can go through leather to burn, a few seconds actually.

Likewise, you can put out candles with fingers, dip a cold hand in molton lead, and thick clothes can be actively on fire with no harm to the user for several moments. (i know one guy had his pants burn off welding and he was unharmed)

Key points is time to heat, heat source, smolder point, flash point, insulation, fuel amount, heat conductivity, ventilation, and duration of heat.

For instance, once while welding, i messed up torch welding and sprayed my face (eyes were safe) with molton steel. One would think I'd be horrifically maimed, but I was fine, the steel just felt like warm, heavy water. This was safe (if scary) because the steel (roughly 1000 degrees when it hit me) had very, very little time to transfer heat, only getting it to the temperature of a hot bath, and not roasted meat. There was also another time i had to haul freshly plasma cut parts with leather gloves, and despite being around the 700 degree range, and my gloves started smoking (and my hands even hurt) i was uninjured, again, because my flesh didn't hit cooking point.

I figure fire might be able to be reworked, with a heat stat that goes up and down based on things like proximity to torches, physical exertion, weapons fire, and (obviously) fire projectiles, taking time to heat up / cool down, and armor / skin would have its smolder / flash point, as well as needing to deal with the ambient heat (ceramic is the same material used in metal pouring "crucibles" for instance, and is a poor conductor, getting hot slowly, and cooling slowly)

I'm not sure how you could balance it, but this would be an interesting way to do it, giving armor a 100% block on damage from weaker fire attacks occasionally (unless hitting the face) but armor quickly burns and smolders armor, but being coated in excessive fuel obviously would act like right now, as the heat source is constant, except a brief moment lacking pain as the body heats to cooking point.

Being naked (or clothed? Idk) would have a higher chance to light on fire due to normal fabric, but would also allow quicker cooling off than being in a kevlar vest oven.

And ceramic, as mentioned, would be a good heat shield to an extent, unless it overheated, and the ceramic literally melted your skin to it, at best cooking your organs, at worst, giving you a very slow death of bleeding, infection, cell collapse and tissue tearing

I know its probably a lot, and maybe too much to suggest, but I can't help but complain. Fire has always been far less elegant mechanically than any other elements in hd, at least in my opinion... And if the tb could work like this too it would be sickly enjoyable. And if imps were less of a dice roll on getting hit if you are fine, or nearly die.

Just something to consider, plus this could make lost souls terrifying

Ummm... No. I'd assume enemies don't just shoot a harmless cloud of fire like lighter's single puff. Instead, they shoot consistent physical plasma\liquid\napalm which basically burns through armor. Just like in real life, a single drop of napalm from a single puff of flamethrower, even if it would just hit your foot, it will start burning THROUGH armor AND body, basically lighting you up like christmass tree, and not even roll on floor would save you there. Hell, even going under water won't stop napalm from burning all your guts from within, even with massive armor on, with unimaginable agony-ful pain. Yep, that's how napalm irl is designed, even slight particle of such inhumane chemical substance hitting your leg would make your whole body burn within a few seconds, EVEN with professional fire-proof armor on, EVEN under water. You'd basically die of pain shock before it even burn your internal organs; but don't worry, it will burn through ANY suit and cook your internal organs like BBQ beef no matter what, even if you wear some professional firefighter anti-fire suit.

But that is IRL, here we talking about supernatural literal hellish 'demigods\demons' incarnate creatures whose power superior of human way beyond imaginable. I'd assume even basic imp shoot some compressed energy in a form of fireball, which is basically making it a smart-heat-seeking rocket launcher (or plasma ball that explode on impact). Yet here are creatures like Mancubus, who literally have advanced flamethrower that can shoot puff of flames on basically infinite range distance. It would only make sense to burn you even quicker than a real life napalm would. Then again, there are even more fire-loving creature out there, a walking interdimensional Jesus incarnate of flaming world - Arch-Vile, who at will sets you on fire on any distance, anywhere ever he wants to, instantly cooking you alive. In fact, I'd say that fire is extremely unrealistically weak at this point, since what enemies use is not even basically just moving hot temperature cloud of air, but rather compressed energy (plasma), or napalm, or sticky hot supernatural Magic substance that capable to burn through anything. I would rather see doomguy helplessly roll on floor in agony by mere reflexes, even with blue armor on, even if he get a single hit from imp, since no proteinaceous creature ever, even as manly badass as doomguy, could ever resist the agony he would get from a burning skin and guts inside. Especially from arch-hile the moment he decides to put that fire-twirling Magic on you. So I'd definitelly would love to see the fire-using enemies get buff to be more realistic and basically lethal no matter what, simply to match to what would happen in real life if such creatures exist. I still find imps one of the unfairly easy enemies to fight against, even compared to a single zombieman.

The only thing I would agree about the fire overall, is that the fire on ground would not instantly set doomguy on fire, and that only if it's not leaked oil or any other liquid that is burning. In real life, you could easily run through bonfire, or even through burning wall of fire when you're inside building that is on fire. This is the only one situation I would agree with where "heating up system" of armor and such would actually apply. But that is just it, the glowing hot temperature rather than sticky chemical substance or supernatural Magical flames; against a normal fire on ground basically even covering yoruself in water drops could help you from setting on fire or even feel the burn; and then again, we always forget that doomguy in Hideous Destructor is heavily armored and heavily equiped with weaponry, making him slow carring all this stuff around, so then again, implementing such a hard and tiresome feature would still go in to vain even if developers figure out how to do it.

[Matt]

Wait, people are being set on fire by fires burning *on the ground*??? That seems like a bug... at least if it regularly happens.

[mumblemumble]

Relax.

I think you are a bit hasty to judge me on this. I never said making imps effectively useless, and I'm not saying that at all.

Second, i don't think you understand thermodynamics, it depends on the armor, how much napalm, and where it hit. If you literally got 1 drop on the front of a ceramic vest for instance, you would probably be fine, but with heated ceramic possibly burning your chest. Heat doesn't just "go through" things, it matters the material, how porous it is, conductivity, ect, as well as if you are literally engulfed. Sure, white phosphorus can melt steel, but so can a welding arc, and I've welded plenty without burning to death, so i think i have a little room to speak.

Going off the doom novels, imps threw mucus, but it didn't home in. My guess would be charged spiritual energy, similar to that of a plasma cutter, but in a sort of "bubble", which pops on impact and transfers heat. Course, depending on how much of this heat hit, what material, if there was fuel residue for continuous burning, these all play as factors from a simpe 4th degree burn as a grazing hit on bare skin, to entirely ignorable with a little insulation, to lighting torn up armor shreds like kindling and burning you horribly. But that's for a single ball, and imps rarely fire just 1. A barrage of a handful would easily force kevlar to ignition point, even if just briefly, and the heat would probably work through the armor.

Besides, this could also make mancubi less pathetically easy, imagine the spit wads of gasoline heating up the area, making area denial zones, and immolating someone directly hit (coating them with gasoline).

All and all, i imagine this could make fire both more terrifying, and less cheap, which is what hd should be.

.... By the way, you really, really don't understand napalm. You act like its liquid nuke. Its simply very, very sticky fuel which burns roughly the same temperature as gasoline. You might be talking about white phosphorus (different) but even that isn't as powerful as you think. Its power comes from it being sticky and hot, and napalm burning underwater works because air bubbles in clothing. And 1 drop would be harmless in the context of combat.... A flamethrower with napalm sprays far more than a "drop" in a single puff. It also has to do with the fuel / surface area balance. Flamers work because its a fine mist of fuel with ignition, so all the fuel lights at once, where as a drop burns colder, since its only so much burning at a time. Its like how grain mills explode, but a box of cheerios DOESN'T explode.

------

I've been hurt by fires on the ground like twice, but never lit up. Honestly I'd like if fires on the ground were more hazardous to stand in but harmless to run through. This is another reason i want a rework, i shouldn't be able to squat on a fire roasting nuts unharmed, that is far from realistic.

[Matt]

My guess would be charged spiritual energy, similar to that of a plasma cutter, but in a sort of "bubble", which pops on impact and transfers heat.

That's what I've been assuming as well.

I have to admit, the catch-on-fire thing has mostly turned out to be a game balance concession, just to make sure the imps were still at least as much of a threat as the zombie. Without the DOT and interface screw/painlock the fireball is both slower and less damaging than even a 9mm bullet.

The only way to increase the damage I can think of is if the bubble were somehow able to open more slowly and unevenly, sending a longer stream of its plasma contents into the target. Focussed on a single spot this could be deadly, but the player could defend by turning and moving away so it doesn't all hit the same spot. Multiple fireballs at slightly different angles might negate this advantage.

The trick then would be trying to figure out how to track all that...

[Caligari87]

I think the simpler assumption is that imp fire is magical or magically contained, and said magic helps the fire stick to whatever it hits. My takeaway from mumble's post is that the player shouldn't take damage immediately from fire but rather only when the fire heats up the player (or player's armor) enough to be a problem.

This could lead to an interesting delay effect where lighting the player on fire isn't immediately a problem (aside from smoke obscuring vision), but the longer the player doesn't address it, the worse the potential problem. The choice would be putting out the fire immediately and avoiding damage to flesh/armor whilst leaving the threats alive, or taking out the threats immediately and possibly taking serious burns and/or ruined armor a few seconds later.

[Matt]

I'll let all this stew in the back burner (pun intended) while I try to do this with the *ERPs.

[Fallingferret]

versions after you reimplemented hd_strip re-equip have had a duplication bug of sorts if you strip while carrying a spare set of armor in you pants. dunno if you get notified of issues posted on git