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Rachael wrote:Here's the thing: Programmers cannot design the menus.

I fully agree with that sentiment. Programmers tend to group options by technical relation but being technologically savvy people have very little knowledge about how normal users tend to think.

So yes, we need some typical user to give input here. Hey, MENUDEF is fully editable, if someone could create a quick setup more to their liking it'd help a lot.

Graf Zahl wrote:I think more about a message like

"GZDoom is running for the first time. Do you want to set up your configuration? Yes/No".

Yes, it's one click more, but it'd only be once at the first start. Sometimes people need a gentle push into the right direction.

I like this idea, and you're right. It'll help push people into the right directions.

As for what is right or what is wrong when it comes to the appearance of GZDoom - I personally use the "None" option with 16x Anisotropic Filtering. Don't get me started on what I prefer for the other options. Some are nauseating, some aren't. The thing is, people wanted those options. Even if they don't look good for us. People want texture scaling. People want Tri/Bi/Linear Filtering. People want six versions of OPL*, two Timidity** and Fluidsynth. They wouldn't of have been added in otherwise (okay, maybe not the Texture Filtering, but you get the idea).

* = NUKED, MAME, Java, DOSBox, ADLMidi, OPNMidi
** = Timidity++, GUS Emulation

Hellser wrote: As for what is right or what is wrong when it comes to the appearance of GZDoom - I personally use the "None" option with 16x Anisotropic Filtering.

That's some weird combination. You are aware that with no filtering the anisotropic option won't do anything, right? For that to have an effect you need to have mipmaps enabled.

Or are you using None (Trilinear)?

Rachael wrote:(Little hint: A lot of "fluff" can be tucked behind an "Advanced Options" menu.

This is the primary focus of my redesign document, so it sounds like I'm on good pace here.

Here's an interesting exercise for the usual forumgoer to contribute: rename your usual .ini file, to start GZDoom with a fresh configuration file. Then, change settings to try and recreate your preferred configuration, starting with the ones most important/obvious to you, and document all these changes as you're making them. When you've reached what you consider reasonable parity, post your results. This would help me judge what options users find the most important, and also what their preferred settings for these options are. You could also include a short summary of your reasoning for some of your choices, if you want. (Don't include keybinds here, though—that's better suited for this topic.)

Graf Zahl wrote:

Hellser wrote: As for what is right or what is wrong when it comes to the appearance of GZDoom - I personally use the "None" option with 16x Anisotropic Filtering.

That's some weird combination. You are aware that with no filtering the anisotropic option won't do anything, right? For that to have an effect you need to have mipmaps enabled.

Or are you using None (Trilinear)?

I'm using "None". Visually there's no difference if I were to switch to any of the mipmapping choices at 16x anisotropic or even if I have them off. If I were to turn off with that setting, then there's a big difference.

Here's a screenshot of "None", zoomed in 4x with anisotropic filtering set to off. Here's another screenshot with the filtering set to 16x.

GFD wrote:(Don't include keybinds here, though—that's better suited for this topic.)

Heh, thanks. Waking up and attempting to make a post leads to mistakes.

Ok, so effectively setting the anisotropic filter appears to force the mipmap filtering to be turned on.

Graf Zahl wrote:Ok, so effectively setting the anisotropic filter appears to force the mipmap filtering to be turned on.

except no that's wrong too

Except, yes. That's exactly what it is doing. It's forcing Trilinear mipmapping on. Something that as you've pointed out, don't realize it is being forced on unless you go back to Texture Filtering.

then why does actually turning trilinear mipmapping on completely change the metal and wood textures in the distance

Because that's what mipmapping does: Sampling from a smaller, downfiltered version of the texture.

... so then if anisotropic turned on mipmapping on its own, setting the filter mode to mipmap wouldn't change much. because it's already doing mipmaps.

someone's missing something here

edit: yeah you still clearly have the shimmering of nearest neighbor going on, even with aniso x16

What do I know what the driver does? There's clearly some mipmapping going on, but please do not ask me what's happening precisely. It may even differ between graphics cards.

no, there really isn't any mipmapping. but back to the topic at hand.

seriously, just have a list of five or six graphical presets when you first start the game; two for software (one as faithful as possible, one as zdoom-y as possible), and three or four for opengl (one as faithful as possible, one that's focused on delivering a clean image, maybe one for gzdoom's current defaults, one that's decked out as hard as possible). it's quick and easy, it's impossible for the player to ignore, and if the player wants to fine tune it, there's nothing stopping them.

at the very least, it's a decent stopgap until the options menu becomes less of a labyrinthine nightmare.

^ Basically this. It's the same problem as keybinds; there's no such One Cfg to Rule Them All, but some reasonable presets will go a long way.

Quotin' my suggestions from the other thread:

• OpenGL Filtered (current defaults, only with Software light mode set by default)
• OpenGL Nearest (GL_NEAREST_MIPMAP_LINEAR, possibly with AF turned on for some crispness; Software light mode too)
• Software Truecolor (w/dynlights)
• Software Classic (paletted; no dynlights; basically the same visuals as ZDoom 2.8.1)

As mentioned in the list, though, one thing IMO that should be changed for all cases is the default light mode -- "Dark" is not accurate to Doom's lighting model; "Software" is. The latter produces correct results in the vast majority of Doom maps (i.e. non-GZDoom maps or ones that don't target a particular lightmode), while the former is just an older mode that's the default for legacy reason (and GPU-compatibility I suppose), and unfortunately this is something that's more pervasive that contributes to the "GZDoom just looks wrong" sentiment that tends to float around. As opposed to filtering which are user preferences that people know they can turn off, the light model is way more sneaky.

Back on topic, I'd like to echo the sentiments from earlier that the menu makes it really tough to figure out what to change (I know of at least one person who stuck to 2.8.1 specifically because it took too much fiddling to try and get the classic look back). A menu revamp is a topic for another thread, but the presets will relieve most of the pain.

Xaser wrote:
Back on topic, I'd like to echo the sentiments from earlier that the menu makes it really tough to figure out what to change (I know of at least one person who stuck to 2.8.1 specifically because it took too much fiddling to try and get the classic look back). A menu revamp is a topic for another thread, but the presets will relieve most of the pain.

I personally get very confused navigating GZDoom's options menu and often just choose to deal with the default look and play. I do this because I have a hard time knowing what to change. The comfort of gameplay that fits my selective choices and exploring all the features that have been so graciously added isn't worth the hassle of wrangling with the menu with little knowledge of what I'm actually doing. If I knew what to change to get what effect, I'd do it.