ZDOOM engine and BUILD engine ( DUKE, SHADOW WARRIOR etc )

[randi]

The strangest thing is that Legacy is the only major source port that's maintained by a team but I can't see any positive effects of that - on the contrary!

Perhaps because no single member of the team is familiar with all of the code, so they do things the best way they know based on what they're familiar with.

I'm curious how you would rate the code of each Doom port and why.

[Graf Zahl]

Ok, you asked for it (so prepare for some minor criticism ):

EDGE: I can't find Doom in there anymore. So much has changed that I never bothered to understand it all.
Legacy: As I already said, somehow it all seems half-finished and unpolished. The ideas are certainly good but the execution often lacks to the extreme.
PrBoom: Up to version 2.2.4 this was basically MBF with a few changes here and there. I am not a big fan of Lee Killough's coding style so it certainly suffers in that regard but overall it's a solid piece of work.
Eternity: Overall the same as PrBoom but as it is still in development I won't comment on the stuff that has been added lately. It looks promising though. No shortcuts and half-baked solutions so far.
Doomsday: Hard to judge. The game code is virtually unaltered Doom and I never looked deep enough into the renderer. But what I have seen certainly looks like a solid piece of work although I personally find some design decisions (most importantly the DED format) somewhat questionable. (But that's only personal preference)
ZDoom: It's my favorite source code. What I appreciate most is that most of the god-awful sloppy hacks that still plague most other source ports (e.g. door lock handling, the overlong thing tables) are gone for good. The only thing I don't like is the way various thing properties are handled through virtual functions and C++ subclasses (most importantly pickups) because it makes adding new stuff in the DECORATE lump more complicated.

[HotWax]

"After 2.1.0, the big thing I want to work on is renderer/engine improvements. I will probably go for using a hybrid Doom/Build map format internally for this, so I might also adapt the Build editor to work with it. I've also been thinking about how using a Build map format would make nice, clean 3D movement clipping possible without using the horrible hack job required to make it work with Doom's existing 2D movement clipping. I'm excited by the prospects for using a Build format internally, but if I don't do any work on it soon, that excitement will likely wane. "

I Thank You A Lot Randy.

Randy also said that he'd be working on DoomScript 4 years ago.

Have fun waiting.

[ColdRock]

No i think he's going to do it this year, right Randy ?

[Xaser]

Yeah, and this year is the End of the World.

[ColdRock]

Oh no... no ROR... ;(

[Lumpy]

ColdRock just give it up. It's not gonna happen. It's just way to much of a headache for Randy to add. Also those mappers that would use it "tastefully" if it was added are pretty content without it (me included).

I have a friend (surprizing isn't it) who use to make simple little deathmatch maps for us to play in the oldskool Doom format. We both gradually grew into using other ports. The both of us started using ZDoom to play our maps. Then making ZDoom format maps. But one day he discovered how to make Legacy maps. Guess what his next map was? A god damn 6 story parking garage. Not good taste! The only problem he had was no ramps for it. Here is our exact converstion.

Lumpy: Why the hell do you think people want to deathmatch on a parking garage?
Friend: I dunno.
Lumpy: What tempted you to even make that monstousity?
Friend: Cuz I thought it would be cool.
Lumpy: Ummm Yea O.K.
Friend: My only problem is I don't know how to make slanted floors in Legacy. I don't think this Legacy, or any other port has that. And I need to make ramps.
Lumpy: Ramps?
Friend: Yea to go up and down between floors, and to make it look more like a real parking garage.
Lumpy: So you want a slanted floor?
Friend: Yea.
Lumpy: You need to slope a portion of the "floors"?
Friend: YES
Lumpy: ZDoom has slopes
Friend: WHAT how the hell do I that?
Lumpy: Well Etc...Etc..Etc.
Friend: I can't use this in my Legacy map can I?
Lumpy: Nope slopes are just a ZDoom thing. Live and learn buddy Legacy just sucks. Use ZDoom and you will have your slopes plus a whole lot more nifty editing features.

[Eevee]

Yes, I was referring to the "I thought it would be cool" syndrome. The same thing that inspires Web pages filled with nothing but <blink>ing text, animated GIFs, animated GIFs for backgrounds, flash or java navigation buttons, centered lime green 36pt text, and so on and so on. I generally call it the Powerpoint effect, for somewhat obvious reasons.

[HotWax]

/me goes and deletes his entire map based on principle.

[Kate]

There may not be true ROR but it certainly be faked using Hexen's silent teleport lines.

[Lexus Alyus]

Is it me or do I seem to make enemies out of morons? I can't argue with that .

As for this stupid argument, I'm going to stop now. Sure 3D floors would be nice and Nimrod Looks great because of them (Alhough it pissed me off that monsters would try to fire at me through a 3D floor... really dumb...). But the fact is that you can create great constructs without these things ATM, plus we need a final version of Zdoom... it's been like 4 years since the last... stop requesting features and lets get the bugs ironed out...

As for the Unreal statement... I'm well aware that Doom isn't unreal and it's the ease of editing with Doom that is fun... that's why I still do it. My point is that if you like other engines so much that you wan't Doom to mimick it, then edit that engine instead, okay?!

I would like to make cool fully 3D levels that just scream out high detail and architecture... I attempt this as best i can with Doom and I can get some nice resualts, but whenever I want to really push this I will edit Unreal or something that can actually do this. As I've said before, just because another engine does this then why should Doom have to conform to this? Doom is older than all of those engines and therefore it is not ust a case of taking bits out and slotting them in place... you don't understand any of this programming... neither do I, but I am aware that this is no easy task... if it was so easy then it would have been done by now.

Don't continue your bullshit okay!? (I weas refering to ColdRock by the way...)

[Curunir]

Speaking of 3D floors, I think I remember a place in License to Spell Doom that scared me a lot. It was an effective 3D floor, but it was just ZDoom and no silent teleports. It was in map 2 if I'm not mistaken, at the flooded subway station. I was all O_O at it for quite some time and finally decided that I won't figure it out, so I thought I'd mention it here.

[Lexus Alyus]

Check out this: http://zdoom.org/zdkb/twostory.html

Download the demo and you will see that 3D floors can sortof already be done. That's good enough for me . Rex used this to greatr effect in The Darkest Hour... there, that can be done... problem solved .

[Graf Zahl]

Is it me or do I seem to make enemies out of morons? I can't argue with that .

Sure 3D floors would be nice and Nimrod Looks great because of them (Alhough it pissed me off that monsters would try to fire at me through a 3D floor... really dumb...).

Typical Legacy I'd say. Legacy uses the old sight checking code from Doom which is totally unsuitable for true 3D-sight checks. So instead of trying to find a solution it's ignored.
Interestingly, with Hexen's sight checking (which ZDoom uses) it would be ridiculously easy to fix this...

[Lumpy]

Graf Zahl wrote:

Interestingly, with Hexen's sight checking (which ZDoom uses) it would be ridiculously easy to fix this...

Even without Hexen's sight checking it probably still would of been fixed if ZDoom had true ROR. Thats why ZDoom is the best port IMO. Why do I feel that way? Because Randy is the best perfectionist to do the job.

Legacy is run by a team of people. Each working on this part, and that part. Add on top of it all the fact that each team member works on his on stuff, and none of them knows what the others are doing, or working on. If a bug is found who do you report it to. If an error does get reported what steps to the take to figure out who made the mistake in there coding. This is the reason I believe Legacy is as buggy as it is. Cuz none of the team members knows who's fault it is, how to fix it, or even what to fix.

If there is an error in ZDoom where does it get reported? Right in this forum. Who reviews it? Randy, and occasionally Graf. Who comes up with a solution or a fix? Randy, and occasionally Graf. I know I'm sounding like a kiss ass here, but you all know I speak the truth. Legacy has hacked ROR, and GL. ZDoom has bridge things, and who the hell cares about GL when it comes to Doom.