Zeth - Hexen style WAD

[randomlag]

Well if you get TOO philosophical there are never any anwers. However, mathematics is NOT a science (see my prior comment about philosophy already). To avoid floating around and waffling and not making any kind of progress, one has to start somewhere with some assumptions (that's the gist of mathematics). They need not be "true" (in lay terms) just that this is required to develop the next step.

The question wasn't what is a science (that invites vagueness). My assertion is that math is not a science. Pretty easy to draw a line in the sand here.

The general nature of science is to study and observe the physical universe (and then use math to model what they see). The modelling accuracy is my premise for defining if it truly becomes a science. If the accuracy/predictability is < 50%, then it becomes a cult thing. Admittedly this is my definition - but that's the way a mathematical game works

Mathematicians do not study the universe per se. It's almost like (well it actually is) a game. Is monopoly a science? Chess? Of course not. What games do (and what mathematicians do) is make up a set of rules and play around within those rules. Some of those rules happen to be capable of a rough approximation useful in some applied sciences. But by no means is that the intent of a pure mathematician.

The obvious example here is actually DOOM - a pretend universe that serves no purpose for the "real world" (not counting that we enjoy playing it).

Because of the unknown nature of the universe, it turns out that physicisists are among the most creative mathematicians since they need to invent new models to explain what they see. This is a case of inventing a game to suit what they see being played out.

As I said, it's something that most applied mathematics professionals do not appreciate. I've had long personal discussions with engineers on this subject - usually not making any progress - since they get stuck on the amazingly good use of the math to solve problems.

If someone wants to debate this, please avoid personal insults and accusations. Give a lucid example why you think math is a "science". You can't just say "I think". If you use standard available resources you will not see the term math described as a science.

[Enjay]

Well if you get TOO philosophical there are never any anwers.

And therein lies the problem. I took the History and Philosophy of Science course that had the accent on Philosophy, rather than the other option which concerned itself more with the History aspect. Ah well.

[Fredrik]

There's a difference between science and natural science which you're missing.

[randomlag]

This is a finite time/space forum and going on and on bores the hell out of everyone, esp off topic - so this is the end (and my apology - maybe shouldn't even post this - it's my evil twin):

natural science n.

A science, such as biology, chemistry, or physics, that deals with the objects, phenomena, or laws of nature and the physical world.

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What you say is true. I assumed the above and should be obvious esp in the context stated = the natural sciences. I apologize since it would have been even cleare had I used the term "natural science" each and every time.

The dictionary definition of science includes just about everything that's "studied". I really like this one: "Knowledge, especially that gained through experience" - useful definition?

So one should be aware that just because a dictionary says something, that doesn't mean it's an accepted fact at the academic / philosophical level. IOW, is economics a "science"? That's where this all started. The definitions will say yes - many people say yes (esp economists). I say no. Just studying some damn thing and using some math modelling does not make it a science. The dictionary be damned

Philosophical issues are always an immediate problem as noted right up front and you can go on and on and never agree. I've already conceded that many professionals disagree with me, but I've given my reasons.

If you follow all the definitions, you'll find that coding (esp games) can be argued as a science per the definition of mathematics. True or not? I hope this shows the obvious huge degree of freedom that exists when you use the dictionary in layman interpretations. Argumentative and sophistic, but certainly not free from contradiction

[Bio Hazard]

Thanks guys. That's what I was afraid of. It will be hard going back to DETH though.

How is DeePsea for a die-hard DETH/ZETH user?

Look how mush fuss DeePSea causes in the forums ... use WadAuthor instead... it causes less trouble in here





it is amazing how much you people argue! look where this thread started! "i need help" and now its "we all live in the matrix where nothing is a science and things can float and fire is only hot in your mind"

after a thread has more than 2 "you are wrong and stupid and i am right because im t3h l337" posts it should be locked... (or at least put back on track)

sorry if i revived a dead topic but i couldnt let this go without a "HAKI-SAKI! *WHACK*" to all involved in the arguement... i hate seeing this stuff

im glad that RL owned up and ended the arguement without a "PAY ME!"

BTW RL said hed make his program better if you tell him what to change
BUT YOU WERE TOO BUSY ARGUING TO SUGGEST ANYTHING and just got him arguing about his "baby" so i have a suggestion for DeePSea:

1. MAKE IT USEABLE take out all the stupid crap that serves no purpose (the music on startup, the sounds... things like that just make it annoying)

2. MAKE A "NEW MAP" FUNCTION!!!!!!!!! what if i dont want to edit a map??? huh? huh?!!?

3. if you dont want a learning curve problem, why dont you offer drawing modes like vertex line and sector? then evrybody could use it right?

4. how many dailogs and buttons do you really need? (see also #1) i NEVER intend to do that much stuff...

anyway...

/me has released his stress
/me is back to his old self
(you get reeeely pissy when contractors are tearing out all of your bathrooms >.< )

[Sphagne]

I am a die hard DEU-->Zeth user, but I use DeepSea for any other level design action than the actual level design. no pun intended!

[HotWax]

Bio, suggesting changes are all well and good, but you have to realize that all RL sees is you complaining, and all he's going to do about it is try to justify things the way they are. He's not going to change anything on your account, because in his mind his program is already perfect, just like himself.

[Enjay]

1. MAKE IT USEABLE take out all the stupid crap that serves no purpose (the music on startup, the sounds... things like that just make it annoying)

Well, I quite like the startup music thingy, but you can disable it. F5 - Autostart program - just like the popup tip tells you.

I find the sounds very useful. I know DeePSea "by ear". The clicks as I move from object to object serve to let me know I have highlighted something, the different sound when I actually select something and of course an unexpected sound when I do something wrong grabs my attention. I find them useful and I don't find them at all obtrusive (they are all quite subtle), but if I did, I'd disable them (F5 Sounds). If ever I forget to switch my speakers on, DeePsea just seems wrong without the sounds.

2. MAKE A "NEW MAP" FUNCTION!!!!!!!!! what if i dont want to edit a map??? huh? huh?!!?

Well, maybe you could use the new level function? huh? huh?!!?

File-new level, or Shift-F3, or click the new level toolbar button.

3. if you dont want a learning curve problem, why dont you offer drawing modes like vertex line and sector? then evrybody could use it right?

I'm never quite sure what people mean by these various modes. What I would describe as line drawing and sector drawing are already there. RL has stated a number of times he will not add putting-in-vertices-first-then-joining-them-up mode (whatever that may be called) as he sees it as a pointless extra step because vertices always have to be joined to a line anyway, so why not just do that? Makes sense to me, but then I always hated "dot-to-dot" in DEU. That was one of the reasons I used to sometimes do stuff in ye olde DoomEd program by Geoff Allan back in the day.

4. how many dailogs and buttons do you really need? (see also #1) i NEVER intend to do that much stuff...

I do intend to "do that much stuff" and indeed, I do that much stuff. In fact, to me that's one of DeePsea major plus points. I can do everything I want very easily without having to use another tool.

[randomlag]

1. MAKE IT USEABLE take out all the stupid crap that serves no purpose (the music on startup, the sounds... things like that just make it annoying)

2. MAKE A "NEW MAP" FUNCTION!!!!!!!!! what if i dont want to edit a map??? huh? huh?!!?

3. if you dont want a learning curve problem, why dont you offer drawing modes like vertex line and sector? then evrybody could use it right?

4. how many dailogs and buttons do you really need? (see also #1) i NEVER intend to do that much stuff...

Ok, back on track:

1. You can disable the sounds, music, startup, etc see F5 options (reg version has no startup). Many people like the sounds, etc. Don't know how many do not, since only a few people give feedback. That's the whole idea behind options (like in ZDOOM). Each person sets their own preference set.

2. There IS a new map command (see File, New Level). There IS a "sector" creation mode - even more so than WA. "sector" stuff is just prefabs, nothing more.

3. Don't believe in vertex only - never will. This "mode" doesn't do anything. All you do is put down vertices and then you -still- have to connect them to make lines and then you have to make a sector. IOW, it takes more steps - so how is that easier?

4. All dialogs serve a purpose. Don't like the toolbars? Turn them OFF. Whether you use a tool or not is up to you. They become "invisible" if you do not read the help

Don't really care what people use - just explaining that it helps to check out the options and to actually use something. Then one is able to give useful comments. 3 out of 4 that are already there should make this obvious. I just added 4 more features suggested by users that actually use DeePsea

There will always be a learning curve because no 2 editors will use the same short-cut keys, etc (although I tried to keep many DEU keys). The interactive tutorial takes care of 95% of the basic questions. The rest is just generic DOOM/ZDOOM editing knowlege and experience (as with ANY editor).

For an example of new learning, see what Gherkin is doing. Pretty cool and interesting, although it will get a lot more complicated as he gets into the many port variations for textures.

[oops, Enjay posted while I was typing -thx- and thinking about not trying to start something else about "science"]

[Biff]

"He's not going to change anything on your account, because in his mind his program is already perfect, just like himself." <---- Another cheap shot. Why?

"I just added 4 more features suggested by users that actually use DeePsea." <---- Oh my.

[randomlag]

What is always interesting is that beginners who are sincere have some of the best ideas (and reasonable complaints). These last were by Graham Jackson, the guy who's doing the RISEN3D port. He's moving to a new house in England somewhere, so don't know his current status or if his links are active (been trying to get him to his own domain for consistent access).

I thought his ideas were pretty handy - for example a command to let you jump from a Linedef to all the Sectors with the same tags (or visa versa). Or being able to automatically mark all Things that are the same type (he needed that for the 3D stuff he is doing). Then he wanted to not have the error checker stop and do a restart, ditto for finds. He wanted to remember the last point, however the change is even better and you can fix them all quickly without restarting the check. All these were things that actually annoyed me too (and I imagine others too ) - was just not motivated enough to make it different.

[Cyb]

UserTools -> Dos Shell

now alt+tab away from the dos window that's opened and deepsea is not useable (until you close the dos window). that's what I was talking about.

(good points with the external icon files btw, though I personally don't think it's necessary and surely there's some easier way to have users select their own icons, or at the very least put all of those icons into a single file)

[randomlag]

When "Wait for Tool" is checked DeePsea will wait for the launched task to end before continuing, iow task synchronization.

Just uncheck that box and DeePsea will run concurrently with the DOS shell (or any other tool). One does have to be aware that programs that modify any existing PWAD can cause trouble - hence the default is "Wait".

Icon thing is simple and very flexible - anyone can modify or create new ones. Enjay created most of them as BMPS at first, then I made them Icons - pretty nice job by Enjay.

If I wanted to use only -those- icons all I have to do is put them in a windows RC file - standard windows stuff. I just wanted to do my own toolbar code 100% - iow none of it relies on any MS toolbar code.

I'm going fishing for a week, so don't take advantage:)

[Bio Hazard]

i cant get past the "select a map to edit" window... clicking OK just brings up more windows i dont understand... looks like im stuck with WadAuthor...

[Biff]

File, New Level....that opens up the window you are talking about, right? Then, if you want your new pwad to be a map01 replacement, select map01. Or, select any other map. Don't worry that you'll start editing doom2.wad or whatever project iwad, it won't do that. Just select a map number and click OK. You should have a blank screen. The file name at upper left will still say something like map03 - doom2.wad but that will change as soon as you do your first save. By default, the save will be to map03.wad but you can select another name of course.