[Stronghold] Final version 1.0 out!

[InsanityBringer]

so, no 1.1. We're going to ignore things that could be done to make the project look nicer? We're going to ignore the time attack issues that were pointed out? (no, seriously, having two minutes to kill monsters as pointed out by gez in the dw thread does not sound like a good thing)

That's a great way to operate. It really is.

[Spleen]

so, no 1.1. We're going to ignore things that could be done to make the project look nicer? We're going to ignore the time attack issues that were pointed out? (no, seriously, having two minutes to kill monsters as pointed out by gez in the dw thread does not sound like a good thing)

That's a great way to operate. It really is.

What if the team members want to move on to other projects?

[InsanityBringer]

That's fine of them. It won't do the project any good though, and well, depending on the ratio of those who like it to those who don't, it will probably go down in history as an failure.

[cq75]

So, to make it clear: Tormentor probably doesn't care at all that you and esselfortium have issues with the map design. Lots of people like it and frankly I am tired to see how some people try to force their own design rules upon others. That said, please shut up!

Thank you! Exactly my thoughts.

I don't know you that well, Tormentor667, but I would like to comment on this

There's a lot of votes on your website that are not very flattering, (I am not saying this to mock you) If you want to know why more people voted "waste of time" than any other rating, you might find your answer by looking through people's comments.

You might not, though. Some people just don't pay enough attention to be able to describe what made their time playing a game tedious, or don't care to. Even those ratings are important, though. Even an inarticulate review is better than no reviews at all.

Personally, when I see a project of this complexity, I feel compelled to give a good reason as to why I find it so unsatisfying and dull, since I figure that people who create a game this complicated must care very much about how good the game is, and, I generally try to help people who work hard and care about what they do.

I like how you tell me to shut up about it and accept Stronghold for what it is

Even though crystalwolf was a bit crude, she might be right. Is this how you see Stronghold? Some thing you made, and no longer want to think about? It seems like you see criticism and feedback as a waste of time. I don't understand that at all. If I had reviews like you do, I'd be tracking down every one and trying to figure out why people felt that way. Their comments MIGHT make the game better, which makes reading them a good use of my time.

[Graf Zahl]

I think it's really time that all of you stop demanding things. What's done is done and if it doesn't please you, pity. I'm not thrilled either because frankly, the gameplay is repetetive and tedious. Could this be improved? Maybe...

But, (and it's a big But!) to improve things you need people who are motivated to do so. And herein lies the problem. How would you handle such a thing with a project where said task would take several weeks again? The answer is, if you don't have a motivated team, you can't.

Another thing is that this mod is totally different from anything else. Its style of gameplay is something that was never done. So it's not surprising that it won't please anyone. And just because you are not pleased does not mean that you have the right to demand it to be improved. There's a much simpler solution to your problem: Delete the file and pretend it never existed. That will probably be my solution to it. But I won't harass Tormentor and the other team members over it. It's very, very bad style and has already driven too many valuable contributors off the Doom community.

[esselfortium]

I demand that you stop making demands

Ok

[Graf Zahl]

Yeah, whatever.

Think for a minute if every mapper got constant demands to improve their 'finished' work. How many new projects would we see then? I guess many mappers would just wander off and leave those spoiled children behind with nothing in their hands at all...

Like probably everybody else here those projects are made by people who want to have fun making them. And if that fun wears off the projects normally die if they are not finished. See where this is going? Hint: This thread is *NOT* fun anymore!

[esselfortium]

Yeah, whatever.

Think for a minute if every mapper got constant demands to improve their 'finished' work. How many new projects would we see then? I guess many mappers would just wander off and leave those spoiled children behind with nothing in their hands at all...

You're equating criticism with demands. We're allowed to post responses that aren't fellatio, just like you're allowed to delete the wad if you don't like it. To use your own words, think for a minute if every player stopped leaving negative feedback and criticism on new releases. How much improvement and progress would we see then?

Like probably everybody else here those projects are made by people who want to have fun making them. And if that fun wears off the projects normally die if they are not finished. See where this is going? Hint: This thread is *NOT* fun anymore!

Well. I don't know about you, but I'm having arguably more fun reading your responses than I had playing most of Stronghold.

[Graf Zahl]

than I had playing most of Stronghold.

Well, at least we agree about that one. The question though is whether it's because the mod bad or just due to incompatible tastes. I strongly lean toward the latter so what am I to criticize here? If I am correct about the incompatible tastes I'm clearly not the intended target audience so there's not really much I can do in terms of constructive criticism.

[cq75]

But, (and it's a big But!) to improve things you need people who are motivated to do so. And herein lies the problem. How would you handle such a thing with a project where said task would take several weeks again? The answer is, if you don't have a motivated team, you can't.

I know you're speaking for Tormentor, but if what you said is accurate, my suspicions are correct and he doesn't care at all about the project anymore. What a shame.

Good games take time, effort, patience, and commitment. However, both of you know that already. As I always say... if it's worth doing once it's worth doing again, if the end result is worth it.

I would like to point out that I was not demanding anything of Tormentor, or you. Merely suggestions, and advice. Whether you choose to listen to me or not at this point doesn't matter to me. What I said I said because I think Tormentor has some real potential. At worst, I was wrong, and if that's the case I won't play his mods or review his projects.

Like probably everybody else here those projects are made by people who want to have fun making them. And if that fun wears off the projects normally die if they are not finished. See where this is going? Hint: This thread is *NOT* fun anymore!

That was in poor taste. Try not to be so cynical, it doesn't make you sound witty, it's actually kind of pathetic.

The question though is whether it's because the mod bad or just due to incompatible tastes.

Even if you're right, and it is just down to taste, it's worth hearing, because that "incompatible taste" might have a good point that makes the game look/play a million times better

Try it. I've used ideas from the strangest places.

[phi108]

Like probably everybody else here those projects are made by people who want to have fun making them. And if that fun wears off the projects normally die if they are not finished. See where this is going? Hint: This thread is *NOT* fun anymore!

That was in poor taste. Try not to be so cynical, it doesn't make you sound witty, it's actually kind of pathetic.

I think you miusunderstood him. As this thread is, it is not contributing to making Stronghold's development fun. So overzealous or belligerent criticism may make an author less inclined to continue a project, or a large amount of valid suggestions and critiques can become overwhelming too.

[esselfortium]

As this thread is, it is not contributing to making Stronghold's development fun.

Would you prefer me to paint my face and juggle while criticizing the maps, or..?

(...don't answer that)

[Captain Ventris]

As this thread is, it is not contributing to making Stronghold's development fun.

Would you prefer me to paint my face and juggle while criticizing the maps, or..?

YES

(...don't answer that)

DANGIT

[TIHan]

To me, Stronghold isn't fun in single-player. However, it is a absolute blast in multiplayer when you run it in Skulltag. The monster count on each wave is multiplied by the player count so you can more monsters coming after you based on the number of players you have. Which is awesome. I think the visuals are fine; I don't mind the re-use of textures as almost every video game does this.

About the criticism, honestly, anything can be improved in some way; but, taking it to extreme levels where it involves arguments over a team's hard work that they have developed for us, for free, is irrational. IMO, having a hissy fit over a game or mod that is developed for free where there is no money involved at all is ludicrous. If there was money involved, that would be a different story.

What could have said as criticism to Stronghold, should have been something like this: "I think this mod is pretty cool, it re-uses some texture and architecture a little bit, but overall, it's pretty damn good!" Short, concise and to the point! No argument, no drama.
You see? That is the kind of criticism that we need to hear. Not a huge wall of text trying to explain every little small detail using words that require to go look up the definition of on the internet, hrm, essel. Learn some common sense bubba.

[CrystalWolf]

What could have said as criticism to Stronghold, should have been something like this: "I think this mod is pretty cool, it re-uses some texture and architecture a little bit, but overall, it's pretty damn good!" Short, concise and to the point! No argument, no drama.

I don't think "criticism" means what you think it means.