Does the Red Cross issue apply to us?

[scalliano]

Just one guy's opinion, but it left an impression:
http://jaybot7.com/blog/game-developers ... -red-cross

Also, why didn't J&J sue the games devs?

[Enjay]

Just one guy's opinion...

Right from the start, I thought his article just smacked of uninformed personal rant but...

Please stop complaining that it is breaking the law and saying that a Red Cross is a trademark logo of your organization. It’s a Red Plus Sign, like so: +. You can’t trademark it, especially not internationally.

that's where he finally lost me because, clearly, you can trade mark it or, rather, have it protected by international law. It's has happened - whether that guy likes it or not.

My only gripe with the whole red cross copyright thing is that they left it so long before deciding to do something about it.

Personally, I think that they should ditch the red cross entirely and go for a single non-religion associated symbol throughout the world instead of fannying around with crosses, crescents and whatever else.

[scalliano]

Granted, he most likely isn't in possession of all the facts, but I think the point he was trying to make was that the symbol itself goes beyond the Red Cross organisatiion. It's a Christian symbol that was around long before.

I just find it ironic that the pentagrams and inverted crosses are fine, but an internationally-recognised symbol of medicine and healing is a big no-no. No wonder games have recharging health these days.

[Ed the Bat]

It's a Christian symbol that was around long before.

"...it was decided to promote officially the idea that the Red Cross flag had been formed by reversing the federal colours of Switzerland, although no clear evidence of this origin had ever been found."
"... the Red Cross emblem was not meant to represent Christianity but was a color reversal of the Swiss flag..."

These are from the Wiki article about the Red Cross/Red Crescent. Granted, I can't outright say these statements are necessarily correct (it's Wikipedia, after all), but just putting it out there for the sake of discussion.

[Gez]

In a roundabout way, the cross on Switzerland's flag is Christian: derived from the flag of the Holy Roman Empire's army; and based on inverting the colors of St George's Cross.

[ibm5155]

I´ll use it and im using, I really don´t see a problem even more on a mod, if it would be a payed game maybe i should do something but a free mod?
The things that I wouldn´t use is porn,brutal violence (real pictures not brutal doom xd),and religious things,abusive pictures,rapes,...

[Mr. Tee]

Is this a joke?

People "can't use the red cross"? So basically, I can't make a red +. Are there any numbers or individual letters that I can't use, as well? Might as well patent the alphabet.

Sure as hell wouldn't bow down to that in a -mod-.

This.


Be aware, I am going to start a multi-billion dollar international company, and the company logo is going to be a human head.

... What!? You say there are humans with heads in video games!? THIS MUST BE DEALT WITH.

We should also ask people to cut their own heads off in real life just to be on the safe side as well.

I very much loath how all sorts of Red Cross money is being spend on chicken shit stuff like this instead of the Red Cross' true purpose, you know, the BLOOD and LIFE-SAVING thing that they are supposed to do. Pardon the language, but what a fucking waste (nice to see that the language filter got that, haha). Makes me feel like I'm from a different planet.

Anyway, not to derail this thread too much, the short answer is yes. The Red Cross' logo is a red +, and since they do not want to be associated with violence, any violent commercial game could be forced to alter the appearance of red + symbols. Neverwinter Nights had to alter their med kit graphic and include it in a patch.





http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Healer's_kit

So it now looks like a delicious ice cream log cake instead of medical supplies.

EDIT: Hotlinked images

[Gez]

since they do not want to be associated with violence

Heh, the Red Cross is for combat medics. They are associated with violence. They aren't going to intervene on a car crash, but in war zones.

No, the idea is that they fear that "trivializing" the symbol by making it that of a simple pickup item risks making it lose its status. The red cross means "do not attack this, it would be a war crime", and this status can only be kept as long as the ICRC keeps control of who can use it. Suppose some army decides to cheat by disguising their troops as Red Cross personnel? As soon as the trick is discovered, nobody would avoid shooting on Red Cross buildings and vehicles anymore. It has to remain something that is especially protected, even more sacred than religious symbols.

Does the use of the red cross symbol in videogame trivialize it? That's debatable. They have decided that yes. To be honest, I'd tend to agree with stuff like Neverwinter Nights but disagree with stuff like Doom and Wolfenstein 3D. There is no reason for the Forgotten Realms to associate the red cross with healing; whereas in Id's classic shooters we have military installations with first aid medical kits. (Heck, the Wolf 3D manual even explicitly says in the description of the medikits that the Nazis have stolen medical supplies from the Red Cross.)

[Blue Shadow]

If you ask me, this entire discussion/rant about the prohibition use of the symbol is pointless; whether we liked it or not, the symbol, despite its simple and rather generic design, is protected by international law. So, saying something like "I don't care, I'll use it. The symbol has been used in games for decades to represent health and healing items" and treating it like video games' property or making analogies to say that the symbol should have never been protected because of its generic design to justify its use by the public domain isn't going to change that fact.

[shoober]

Would it still be illegal to recolor the red cross to a blue cross like they did in Unreal Tournament?

[Ravick]

If you ask me, this entire discussion/rant about the prohibition use of the symbol is pointless; whether we liked it or not, the symbol, despite its simple and rather generic design, is protected by international law. So, saying something like "I don't care, I'll use it. The symbol has been used in games for decades to represent health and healing items" and treating it like video games' property or making analogies to say that the symbol should have never been protected because of its generic design to justify its use by the public domain isn't going to change that fact.

Well, I agree. But the same could the said in Doom modding community for the use of (even modified) iD/Raven/etc sprites, sounds, musics, etc. I agree that commercial games will have to follow the law anyway, but for 'free modders' I believe that the "I don't care, I'll use it" is just enough. Specially in mods of an old game that already uses the symbol.

[Blue Shadow]

Well, I agree. But the same could the said in Doom modding community for the use of (even modified) iD/Raven/etc sprites, sounds, musics, etc. I agree that commercial games will have to follow the law anyway, but for 'free modders' I believe that the "I don't care, I'll use it" is just enough. Specially in mods of an old game that already uses the symbol.

You have a point there, but that doesn't make it any more legal, now does it? We are technically violating the law by using contents from other (commercial) games in our mods like sounds and graphics. The difference between this and the symbol is that the latter is avoidable; what is going take you to change that symbol to something else or even use a different color? It's like we are being stubborn heads and lazy and say:' "Screw you Red Cross! We're gonna keep on using your precious, law-protected symbol in our mods even if you don't like it. Take that!"

What kind of attitude is that?

[Big C]

Well given that home-ownable and business-site first-aid kits have the Red Cross logo on them, isn't it kind of an odd argument to say that the Red Cross has exclusive rights to the thing?

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

Well, lets just hope that the Ophite Cultus Satanas doesn't ask us to remove the inverted pentagrams and crosses for copyright infringement.

[Gez]

Well given that home-ownable and business-site first-aid kits have the Red Cross logo on them, isn't it kind of an odd argument to say that the Red Cross has exclusive rights to the thing?

Johnsons & Johnsons have had a trademark on the Red Cross symbol since before the Geneva Convention established the Red Cross symbol's protection. It's complete bullshit, but it's how it goes.

Other companies have no rights to use it. Apparently, some did, which is why J&J sued the Red Cross in order to coerce them into preventing the dilution of the symbol so as to protect J&J's trademark. The thing on video games is part of this.