[release] The Phobos Directive, direct to you

[Blue Shadow]

The funny thing is that people don't complain about the fact that the shotgun magically becomes more powerful in doom guy's hands than it is in the shotgunner's hands in Doom.

[TheDarkArchon]

The funny thing is that people don't complain about the fact that the shotgun magically becomes more powerful in doom guy's hands than it is in the shotgunner's hands in Doom.

Because that's a lot less conspicuous and can be chalked up to the fact that they're zombies and thus can't aim for shit.

[ReX]

.... and I am totally enjoying it in any kind of way. Sure, there are a few issues left that have already been picked out but overall the whole mod is a very cool and well-done mod. I really like how original areas have been incorporated in the maps and it's nice to have these "dejavu" moments here and there. The gameplay is challenging but also addictive as you just want to continue and visit more places that you have already seen in the original episode on Phobos.

"Cool" and "deja vu" were among the things we were going for. Of course, "cool" is in the eye of the beholder, but I'm glad others agree with us that there are cool features.

I actually think (and yes, it's me who says this ) that the level of detail and design is just right for the project, it's consistent and it looks fine to me. I really appreciated the maps so far and I wasn't disappointed if some areas looked a bit bland or only textured with STARTAN, as I simply didn't care, I just wanted to proceed and see what's coming up next

Ha, ha! Daniel Gimmer doesn't think it needs more detail! But I'm happy with your comment about wanting to proceed to see what was coming next. In my opinion, that's important both in story-telling and in game design.

I think it's mostly a question of personal taste and personal demand.... So why do people complain now about Rex' maps and its level of detail even though it was maybe meant to look like this?

Precisely what I've been saying all along. Yes, I agree with darkhaven's comments that detailing in some areas could be improved. I even agree that the "esselforium dictum on texturing" is a wonderful idea. It's just that the level of detailing and texturing that is being advocated is far more than I want to take on, because they aren't as important to me. Somehow, that must make me a shitty game designer. And, actually, I'm perfectly fine wearing that badge. "Rex Claussen: Shitty Game Designer". It has a certain ring to it. Heh.

Loud accusations of laziness on the part of the play-testers and by me were being thrown around. [Which, I recall, was also being done when Stronghold was released.] I have spent hundreds of hours on this project, and others on the Team have spent a great deal of time too. Hardly a sign of laziness. But we spent time on what we considered important. Just because we didn't do things the way others would have wanted doesn't make us lazy. [Of course, I can hear the accusers saying: "You spent hundreds of hours, and all you could come up was this crap? You should have gotten off your lazy ass and focused on the texturing and detailing more." But I jest.]

Other than that: Great job guys, I can't wait to finish it

I hope the rest of the game continues to meet your expectations.

Nice to see some positive comments this morning and even Torm saying "doesn't need more detail". . This is a day for the diary I think.

I haven't had a chance to speak to Rex about this but I suspect that there have been enough little "bits and pieces" highlighted (eg the crouch/jump window and so on) that a revised version probably should be made so if people could keep submitting bug reports (etc) it would be appreciated.

Good one about Torm's "doesn't need more detail" remark. I chucked at that one too.

As for your suggestion that we work on v1 of the game, I agree. At this time there appear to be few actual bug reports, and most of the comments have been on the visuals and gameplay elements (i.e., unnecessarily tough shotgunners, inability to use other weapon mods, lack of detail in some areas, texturing, etc.) When I get done with my grueling job and travel schedule by mid-December I'd be happy to begin work on the update. The easiest for me to tackle will probably be adding architectural details, as this is a purely mapping task. The DECORATE-related stuff will have to be a collaborative effort. As for texturing, I wonder if we should ask esselfortium to join the Team to clean up the issues that darkhaven pointed out. For my part, I'm reluctant to undertake the task, as I just don't believe I have the eye for it. As I've said before, wall-papered texturing works just the same for me as does careful texture application. I'd just end up wondering why I was working on the task, and not give it my best.

At any rate, let's begin a thread on the DRDTeam Forums.

[Blue Shadow]

Because that's a lot less conspicuous and can be chalked up to the fact that they're zombies and thus can't aim for shit.

You have a point there. However, even if the shotgunner is standing at point-blank range, the damage that inflicts upon its target is no match to the damage you could do with the shotgun in your hands. (3 pellets (shotgun guy) compared to 7 pellets (doom guy)).

[esselfortium]

I think it's mostly a question of personal taste and personal demand.... So why do people complain now about Rex' maps and its level of detail even though it was maybe meant to look like this?

Precisely what I've been saying all along. Yes, I agree with darkhaven's comments that detailing in some areas could be improved. I even agree that the "esselforium dictum on texturing" is a wonderful idea. It's just that the level of detailing and texturing that is being advocated is far more than I want to take on, because they aren't as important to me. Somehow, that must make me a shitty game designer. And, actually, I'm perfectly fine wearing that badge. "Rex Claussen: Shitty Game Designer". It has a certain ring to it. Heh.

Erm... This actually isn't what you've been saying at all, though. The last time we had a discussion about this while TPD was still in development, we were just told "I can assure you that the alignment is impeccable" and similar.

I don't believe I've personally ever forced ideals like this down yours or anyone's throat, and just telling me from the start that visuals weren't important to you would have saved myself, 40oz, Fisk, Solarn, and others a lot of time writing posts trying to explain this stuff. There have been lots of mappers who just plain didn't much care what their maps looked like; that's completely fine by me, but it's rather inconsiderate to let people waste their time trying to give you input that you already know you aren't interested in.

(It's still worth noting, though, to both Tormentor and yourself, that "quantity of detail" was never the question being raised here, nor was it with Stronghold. I mean..just to clarify, since it seems to get misunderstood a lot )

[InsanityBringer]

(It's still worth noting, though, to both Tormentor and yourself, that "quantity of detail" was never the question being raised here, nor was it with Stronghold. I mean..just to clarify, since it seems to get misunderstood a lot )

Can detail even be quantified in any decent way? Certainly, you can count that one room has more fancy detailing features than the other. But perhaps there's a reason why said room has more details, and why the other one actually has less details.

[esselfortium]

IMO it can't really, no. Or, perhaps it'd be better put this way: increasing or decreasing the visual complexity of an area does not by itself make something look better or worse. All the bad detail in the world will still look bad, obviously. Hence why the frequent confusion makes me want to go

[ReX]

The last time we had a discussion about this while TPD was still in development, we were just told "I can assure you that the alignment is impeccable" and similar.

That's because I was (and still am) accustomed to "wallpapering"; and using those standards, the alignment seemed fine to me.

I don't believe I've personally ever forced ideals like this down yours or anyone's throat, and just telling me from the start that visuals weren't important to you would have saved myself, 40oz, Fisk, Solarn, and others a lot of time writing posts trying to explain this stuff. There have been lots of mappers who just plain didn't much care what their maps looked like; that's completely fine by me, but it's rather inconsiderate to let people waste their time trying to give you input that you already know you aren't interested in.

It's not that I wasn't interested in hearing what you had to say, it's that initially I genuinely didn't understand what you all were trying to explain to me. Once it dawned on me I quickly realized that, while it would add value to maps, it wasn't something for which I held as high a priority as you all. I can appreciate stunning visuals, but the absence of stunning visuals do not bother me. I'd go further and state that I am perfectly content with adequate visuals (i.e., proper x- and y-alignment). Therefore, I'd venture to say that my standards are different (some may say lower) than others' are. I never implied that I didn't care for your opinions, although I probably made it clear that we don't share the same ideals in this regard. I wasn't being arrogant or "high and mighty" as darkhaven indicated, and certainly not rude or insulting whatsoever. I pride myself in being courteous and respectful to others, unless I see a bullying attitude (which is what I saw earlier in this thread, and which is what made me drop my customary courtesy).

(It's still worth noting, though, to both Tormentor and yourself, that "quantity of detail" was never the question being raised here, nor was it with Stronghold. I mean..just to clarify, since it seems to get misunderstood a lot )

My remark about Stronghold was in response to accusations of laziness, not with respect to detailing or texturing. But I understand what you mean.

As a point of clarification, detailing and texturing and other things visual are obviously important in a video/computer game. But the artistry is percieved (and, indeed, accomplished) differently by different artists. What T667 believes is artistic (e.g., "extreme" detailing), and what I believe is artistic (e.g., curving and flowing lines) don't appeal to everyone. That doesn't make our stuff any less enjoyable to some, perhaps many. If, however, in the balance we get feedback that universally trashes our work (i.e, we're doing everything wrong), my guess is that we'll continue to develop mods that we just won't release for public consumption. I don't believe we'll reach thath point, but I'm just saying.

[esselfortium]

If, however, in the balance we get feedback that universally trashes our work (i.e, we're doing everything wrong), my guess is that we'll continue to develop mods that we just won't release for public consumption. I don't believe we'll reach thath point, but I'm just saying.

That seems a bit self-defeating. I would hope that if the response to anyone's serious project ever was really that universally bad, the authors involved would be more interested in learning from their mistakes and further sharpening their skills.

I mean, John Romero still made.. um.. what was it he did after Daikatana again?

[Tormentor667]

my guess is that we'll continue to develop mods that we just won't release for public consumption. I don't believe we'll reach thath point, but I'm just saying.

That would definitely be a loss for many of us. Don't consider to be a few people who don't like your work to be the majority of us!

I mean, John Romero still made.. um.. what was it he did after Daikatana again?

What is this... Daikatana?!

[ReX]

That seems a bit self-defeating. I would hope that if the response to anyone's serious project ever was really that universally bad, the authors involved would be more interested in learning from their mistakes and further sharpening their skills.

Yes, I agree that there is always the opportunity to learn and improve, no matter how seasoned we are. But, ultimately, it boils down to priorities. If "life-like" texturing is a priority, then by all means a mapper ought to implement it. But the reluctance to adopt those principles is not necessarily an indication of unwillingness to improve. For example, I know that DB2 is the best free map editing tool available today. But the fact that I continue to map with WadAuthor does not make me lazy or unwilling to improve. In this instance, I continue to do "business as usual" because I feel that I'm able to make reasonably fun games with the tools and skills I have. I don't aspire to be a great game designer, mainly because of the limited time I have available for game development, but also because I recognize I have a limited skill-set and artistic outlook. Being told I'm lazy, unwilling to accept suggestions for improvement, and being an overall ass is largely as a result of my limitations, which I listed above.

And what I meant with the whole packing up my tent and moving away is that if no one liked anything about what I create, I'll not stop creating on that account. I'll just not release what I create. I am not averse to criticism, but if it gets to the point that I have to change the way I do things to please others and it doesn't please me, why would I continue doing it. I have not done game creation for the sake of recognition for many a long year now. I do it as a hobby that I enjoy, and with which I have the means to be creative.

@ T667, I believe essel refers to Alice.

[Kappes Buur]

Good one about Torm's "doesn't need more detail" remark. I chucked at that one too.

I had a good chuckle out of this one. One lousy little l can distort the meaning drastically.

@ T667, I believe essel refers to Alice.

Wasn't that DeusEx ? Alice was American McGee.


As to the subject of this thread : Excellent mapset. I enjoyed it.
Playing deimos-v right now.

[Xaser]

Romero didn't have anything to do with Deus Ex either, IIRC, besides hiring Warren Spector and saying "go crazy with it." Ion Storm did a few other games, but I'm not sure how much he had to do with any of 'em. Maybe Anachronox, but that was mostly Tom Hall's doing.

[Sodaholic]

I'm not sure what there are screens place on the ceiling that requires a person stare straight up to look at it, but that aside, a bent LCD screen is kind of silly and serves no logical purpose.

Actually, the screens in Doom are CRTs, meaning that those are CRTs being bent inwards. Yeah.

[Major Cooke]

Precisely what I've been saying all along. Yes, I agree with darkhaven's comments that detailing in some areas could be improved. I even agree that the "esselforium dictum on texturing" is a wonderful idea. It's just that the level of detailing and texturing that is being advocated is far more than I want to take on, because they aren't as important to me. Somehow, that must make me a shitty game designer. And, actually, I'm perfectly fine wearing that badge. "Rex Claussen: Shitty Game Designer". It has a certain ring to it. Heh.

Dude, I am completely with you on this. I certainly don't like putting up with texture misalignments, making mixtures and creating a bunch of sub-stuff just to make something more aesthetically pleasing. Personally, that's why I focus more on interactions to distract the player (floors and ceilings moving, little scripted events and/or effects). For instance, I thought it was really awesome when you made those doors, and they served their purpose of being aesthetically AND interactively pleasing to me perfectly.

Loud accusations of laziness on the part of the play-testers and by me were being thrown around. [Which, I recall, was also being done when Stronghold was released.] I have spent hundreds of hours on this project, and others on the Team have spent a great deal of time too. Hardly a sign of laziness. But we spent time on what we considered important. Just because we didn't do things the way others would have wanted doesn't make us lazy. [Of course, I can hear the accusers saying: "You spent hundreds of hours, and all you could come up was this crap? You should have gotten off your lazy ass and focused on the texturing and detailing more." But I jest.

Sadly, people will be assholes, mate. Almost all the comments at Doomworld I must say are almost completely useless, though, so I say take them with a grain of salt (especially the people who gave it a 0 for no looping music and said fuck the rest).

(In fact, I often go as far as to ignore the star ratings and comments which has given me a pleasant surprise at some turns.)

About the whole laziness aspect, yeah it's quite irksome to sit there and let someone attempt to deface one's work out of "lack of testing". That's a bit evident from what projects like AEons of Death get (There is no shame in using it as an example, as we're talking about testing things). People are quite ignorant, or can be outright trolls about anything.

-----

Now, I haven't had much time to finish the entire thing but I like what I see so far. However, one slight annoyance was trying to find the weapon on the first map, mainly because I'm new to it and what not, but I definitely like where it's going. I do think the teleport sequences could be faster, but I'm not complaining since you at least took into account the player being frozen and giving them invulnerability.

I don't think you're a bad game designer in any sense of the word. To me, you seem more of a veteran type of guy whose been around for quite a while and who knows what he likes best, and goes with it. Let me just say this, there is no better type.