GZDoom Subforum Discussion

Discuss anything ZDoom-related that doesn't fall into one of the other categories.

Do you think that GZDoom should have a subforum in the ZDoom forums?

Poll ended at Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:43 am

Yes.
9
69%
No.
1
8%
Other. (Explain in post)
3
23%
 
Total votes : 13

Re: GZDoom Subforum Discussion

Postby Lud » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:49 am

Eruanna wrote:I am not going to speak for anyone about what a "consensus" is here. But from what I see, it seems like people are quite happy with the idea of a sticky thread.

But I will repeat what I've been saying all along -

Talk. To Graf.

He's really not an evil guy. Explain your reasoning, justify your thoughts, he's usually very willing to work with people as long as you show him some respect (something that a lot of people who complain about him do not show, I've noticed).

If Graf won't make the thread, perhaps Wildweasel will - I know it will get used either way.


I know Graf isn't evil and I'm certainly not complaning. I like the dude, in fact. But I'm not talking about reopening the feature suggestions, as that'd be useless if nobody wants to work on them. With only dpJudas on the case atm, it's not gonna be long before he goes "screw this shit, I'm going home" when the suggestions start coming in the dozens. After you guys discussed it and I read it carefully, it does indeed seem best to just create a thread in case some features slip past the lockdown. Other than that, I don't think there's much else to do, really. It's been made clear that migrating the forums will most likely cause a confusion rather then clarity, and duplicating them would ensure total chaos for Graf. Better not drive him crazy.

As for where I stand - I'm for making a thread that gets updated by people who do improvements on the GL renderer. It shouldn't necessarily be maintained by only one person. If Graf adds something, post update. If dpJudas adds something else, update again. It's all for the sake of being known. It's not really that much of a bother, imho, as long as the work is split and doesn't fall on a single person's shoulders.
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Re: GZDoom Subforum Discussion

Postby Gez » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:52 am

Just make an OP with "Discuss GZDoom-related stuff here if your religion forbids you from using the official forums". Why would there be anything else in it? And why should the OP be responsible for keeping the thread updated regularly, by the way? I figure even just someone asking every week or so "anything happening in GZDoom lately?" would be enough to get answers posted from other, less lazy posters. And if people express interest neither in visiting the forum nor in posting in the thread, then obviously they don't deserve fresh GZDoom news.
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Re: GZDoom Subforum Discussion

Postby Rachael » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:59 am

Gez wrote:Just make an OP with "Discuss GZDoom-related stuff here if your religion forbids you from using the official forums". Why would there be anything else in it? And why should the OP be responsible for keeping the thread updated regularly, by the way? I figure even just someone asking every week or so "anything happening in GZDoom lately?" would be enough to get answers posted from other, less lazy posters. And if people express interest neither in visiting the forum nor in posting in the thread, then obviously they don't deserve fresh GZDoom news.

Done
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Re: GZDoom Subforum Discussion

Postby dpJudas » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:02 pm

Lud wrote:I see now that the stealthy additions to the GL renderer are due to the fact that the Feature Suggestions subforum for GZDoom is...closed. So how did the tonemap make it in? How did the bloom make it in? I don't even see a post regarding the latter.

When I saw the feature suggestions being closed I figured it was closed more because Graf didn't have the resources/interest in implementing feature requests for others than not wanting new features at all. Turns out I was right. :D
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Re: GZDoom Subforum Discussion

Postby Rachael » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:06 pm

That was exactly his reasoning when he requested it being closed, along with a lack of desire to do anything outside of the projects that he, himself, initiated (though he didn't specifically say that, but the revamp of the renderer "GZDoom v2.0" occurred after the closure).
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Re: GZDoom Subforum Discussion

Postby Graf Zahl » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:09 pm

I have a full time programming job. GZDoom is just a hobby project for me to get away from the boring things of mobile and web apps for which I get paid. But being a full-time programmer also means that most of the time there is very little motivation left to think about other programming problems, and even less about things that need active research. I want to do other things in my free time as well.

Don't get fooled by the activity I did in the first few months this year. I virtually had three months with no real work because my boss was on a business trip and was unable to give me sufficient work to fill my time schedule. It was the perfect opportunity to do the two things I had been wanting to do for years but never found the time for.
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Re: GZDoom Subforum Discussion

Postby Lud » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:15 pm

The Feature Suggestions don't get near as much attention as they do here because doable GL-specific suggestions are much fewer than the general ZDoom suggestions. With ony 2 people at best working on GZDoom-specific improvements, I say there's not much use in having it open, so Graf did right. Better just report the accidental additions in the new thread. That being said, I have a feeling we're starting to chew the same arguments now. I no longer have anything useful to add to the conversation, therefore I shall leave it for the time being.

With Graf joining the thread and explaining the situation, I think we've found ourselves in a stalemate regarding the state of the GZDoom Subforum Discussion. I'll be closing the poll in that case. (Tomorrow, actually. Can't close because it must be at least a day since the creation.)

Thanks to everyone who participated and helped to find a middle ground. :)
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Re: GZDoom Subforum Discussion

Postby Tapwave » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:27 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:I have a full time programming job. GZDoom is just a hobby project for me to get away from the boring things of mobile and web apps for which I get paid.

Now you got me curious, what apps have you worked for? I could spend a few bucks to give you some support. :p
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Re: GZDoom Subforum Discussion

Postby dpJudas » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:40 pm

Hopefully not as boring as the web apps I've been doing the last few years. I swear each time I do another web solution I die little more inside.
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Re: GZDoom Subforum Discussion

Postby Graf Zahl » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:50 pm

Tapwave wrote:Now you got me curious, what apps have you worked for? I could spend a few bucks to give you some support. :p



Forget it. I only do contract work. (yes, some games, too, but most of the time promo apps and stuff like that. As I said: boring.)
Making apps to live off the revenue is unfeasible for smaller developers, there's just not enough money in there.
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Re: GZDoom Subforum Discussion

Postby Graf Zahl » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:56 pm

dpJudas wrote:Hopefully not as boring as the web apps I've been doing the last few years. I swear each time I do another web solution I die little more inside.



Tell me about it. :mrgreen:

The project I am currently working on is a web app I inherited from another programmer who due to an illness had to give it up.
The thing is, each time I see some real-life Javascript code I'd like to tear my hair out. The code is utterly insane most of the time, in general poorly documented and oftentimes very hard to read because there's no need for declarations which could give one a hint of what's going on.

Whoever thought that the combination of HTML, CSS and Javascript was a feasible platform for serious development should rot in hell... :twisted:

Too bad that this is where the money is. This stuff pays twice as well as making a mobile app and does not even compare to making games.
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Re: GZDoom Subforum Discussion

Postby dpJudas » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:21 pm

Also strictly doing it for the money, although I'm not sure how much longer I can do it.

What really kills me is the seemingly lack of understanding of just how terrible those technologies are. It seems the general rule in web is that if you can find a hack (usually via stackoverflow or google) then all your peers thinks this is cool and the way to go. The shorter the hack looks, the more peer pressure for going that route. And lets include as much 3rd party JavaScript as theoretically possible, even if you could code it yourself with 10 lines of code.
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Re: GZDoom Subforum Discussion

Postby Graf Zahl » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:36 pm

That sounds about right. The project I am working on uses a framework that builds on such a shitload of third party libraries that it has become impossible to track down all dependencies and find out which code inherits functionality from where. Which has the consequence that looking up documentation for that stuff is a mostly futile endeavour.
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Re: GZDoom Subforum Discussion

Postby Nash » Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:02 pm

Re: original topic

The devs and programmers don't owe anyone anything and they don't have to go out of their way to announce "hey! We're adding a framebuffer architecture and adding post processing etc etc". As Graf Zahl has already said, GZDoom is a hobby project and he isn't paid to do it. He can do whatever he wants. Same goes for dpJudas, he's put in a lot of work code-wise and voluntarily; at the end of the day, he still doesn't need to go out of his way to tell everyone on zdoom.org what he's doing.

There's PLENTY for everyone to read and follow progress by reading Github changelogs, forum posts etc.

I still voted "Yes" though because having everything in one website is of course convenient and who would say no to convenience. :P But I already browse the 2 forums (have been for the last ELEVEN years!) so it's not a problem for me.

My 2 cents
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Re: GZDoom Subforum Discussion

Postby Rachael » Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:18 pm

A merge would not be possible, anyway. I could give Randi the part of my DB that has to do with GZDoom, but all the ID's would clash with what's already there. It would take a day or two in order to write a script to give every post, every topic, and every user (who's not already here, trust me there are a few) its own unique ID that isn't already taken by a zdoom.org instance. I don't know anyone who's willing to go through all that trouble.

If this were to happen, either the subforum on zdoom.org would have to start anew, run side-by-side with the old one, or run as its own separate instance of phpBB.

Plus, the DB's are no longer compatible anyway since I upgraded, so they'd have to be translated in the to and fro - even more work.
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