Brutal HeXen/Heretic RPG - A Final Update

[Silentdarkness12]

Currently, it seems that levelling up only increases your maximum health.

[patrik]

It is nice to see somebody else finally taking mantle of Brutal HeXen project and going forward with it, as it is quite obvious that official development was cancelled for sure and Brutal Heretic is nice thing to have too.

I tested only slightly both mods (but mostly HeXen, as you can see ), so my observations are rather sketchy, but here you go:
For both:
-There are problems with visibility of graphics on non 16:9 screen ratios:
> Position for main menu text seems to be unoptimized for smaller 4:3 screen resolutions such as 1024x768, because I have it shown in lower right corner of my screen just barely visible.
> Similarly HUD elements and some weapons off-sets (especially melee weapons from HeXen) seems to have fixed positions for 16:9 screen ratios, so you are missing on screens with narrower aspect ratios.

For Brutal HeXen:
- Dont know if this is caused by incompatibilty of software renderer with your mod (and I *do* hope you aim to keep support for it ), but as backgound of main menu I get checkboard of grey and white squares slowly scrolling to right.
- I dont understand inclusion of that blue sword - it seems redudant to me next to axe, same combat dynamics just with bit higher damage output.
- I noticed that you removed fatalities for killing ettins and afrits as fighter and getting killed as figther by ettin - deliberate decision?
- There seems to be no difference for using flechettes with fighter and mage. Most propably temporary placeholder, eh?
- I think it would be nice idea to add new bind in controls for quickly using flechettes. (And for that reason maybe also add separate counter for them in HUD.)
- I like to as cleric use his poisonous flechettes for setting traps, and now it is rather clunky, because he always throws them into distance. Maybe differentiate throwing/dropping by pushing/holding-and-releasing that flechette key?
- Just wondering, now, when all player classes got way to push away monsters, didnt discs of repulsion got redundant too?

For Brutal Heretic:
- I dont think giving clinks blood and gore is good idea. They always seemed to me not as living beigns but more as some sort of biomechanical beasts, "steam-punkish" automatons or robots. Making them spew pieces of metal all over place (and that explosion maybe could inflict little damage too) would be IMO more Heretic "lore" friendly.

That is all so far, good luck!

[PWAD Pete]

Interesting, I actually signed up to ask something when I found this, so hey everyone!

Anyway, what happens when it says that I leveled up?

I have an idea if there's room for it? When you level up, can't you bring up some menu where you can choose to improve a weapons damage or player speed, mana regen, or similar?


Thing is, that I was actually thinking of such a system for a mod that I wanted to do for Hexen, but this mod already have a level up feature!I will not go into any details, cause the rules text specificly says that I shouldn't so!

Yeah, it increases a few stats and etc, but I've got more stuff that i'm implementing into it. Have you tried the HeXen mods Serpent: Resurrection or Wrath of Cronos btw? Those both use rpg systems very similar to what you are talking about. If you've never played them, I would certainly recommend that you give 'em a go.

-There are problems with visibility of graphics on non 16:9 screen ratios:
> Position for main menu text seems to be unoptimized for smaller 4:3 screen resolutions such as 1024x768, because I have it shown in lower right corner of my screen just barely visible.
> Similarly HUD elements and some weapons off-sets (especially melee weapons from HeXen) seems to have fixed positions for 16:9 screen ratios, so you are missing on screens with narrower aspect ratios.

I'm in the process of making a new HUD, so i'll see if i can make it work for all aspect ratios. I'm not sure about how the weapons would be fixed though. There might be some user settings in display options that you could change to fix this.

- Dont know if this is caused by incompatibilty of software renderer with your mod (and I *do* hope you aim to keep support for it ), but as backgound of main menu I get checkboard of grey and white squares slowly scrolling to right.

That's probably because I have a titlemap that uses a gray cloud skybox. I'll remove the titlemap and just use the original title graphics.

- I dont understand inclusion of that blue sword - it seems redudant to me next to axe, same combat dynamics just with bit higher damage output.

I mostly included it because I thought it would be neat to have. It's a faster paced axe pretty much.

- I noticed that you removed fatalities for killing ettins and afrits as fighter and getting killed as figther by ettin - deliberate decision?

Yeah. The fatalities got in the way of the gameplay too much. You were completely vulnerable to damage when performing a fatality, which can be extremely frustrating.

- There seems to be no difference for using flechettes with fighter and mage. Most propably temporary placeholder, eh?

Yeah, placeholder. I'm just gonna make him set flechettes on the ground or something then run away.

- I think it would be nice idea to add new bind in controls for quickly using flechettes. (And for that reason maybe also add separate counter for them in HUD.)

I had thought about that before actually. I thought at first that too much buttons might eventually get annoying, but if it's convenient, I could definitely add that.

- I like to as cleric use his poisonous flechettes for setting traps, and now it is rather clunky, because he always throws them into distance. Maybe differentiate throwing/dropping by pushing/holding-and-releasing that flechette key?

I'll see what I can do about that.

- Just wondering, now, when all player classes got way to push away monsters, didnt discs of repulsion got redundant too?

Well discs of repulsion are much more powerful, plus they can reflect projectiles, which works very well against the Menelkir and Traductus bosses.

- I dont think giving clinks blood and gore is good idea. They always seemed to me not as living beigns but more as some sort of biomechanical beasts, "steam-punkish" automatons or robots. Making them spew pieces of metal all over place (and that explosion maybe could inflict little damage too) would be IMO more Heretic "lore" friendly.

I actually thought about this before making the clinks. I might make it a custom cvar, like "enable gore for sabreclaws".

[SallazarSpellcaster]

I've got a lot of stuff planned as far as making the classes play differently. I'm planning on having a slot 5 weapon, that uses naturally regenerating ability energy for ammo, and at the start of the game you choose a certain playstyle for your class, for example, you might start a game as the mage, and immediately you are asked what kind of sorcery you want to use the rest of the game, and you can choose something like necromancy or other types of sorcery. The choice grants certain passive abilities and determines what your slot 5 weapon does. I just home I can accomplish making something so convoluted.

In that case, why not opt for a "specialization system" instead?

Similar to RPGs such as Final Fantasy and other JRPGs, you start with a basic class, and then at a certain level (for example level 10 or so) you get to choose a specialization that gives you a different slot 5 weapon depending on what you choose.

A quick example could be: Mage -> Elementalist or Summoner -> Archmage or Necromancer. So, a specialization path at a certain level, and then a "mastery" upon reaching an even higher level. Rather than making a stat based RPG system as in Wrath of Cronos or Serpent Resurrection, making a more "passive" one based on what kind of playstyle the player chooses. Of course, certain basic stats such as HP, mana, and generalities could increase upon leveling, with the main draw being the variations in gameplay.

Also, I tried out the Ethereal Sword. It's bloody awesome; I agree with someone else's comment that it makes the axe unnecessary, but its increased speed (and a personal bias towards really liking Elder Scrolls weapons) make it all the more kickass to use.

Edit: Did a full playthrough of Hexen as the Fighter, and a couple monsters stood out, not in a good way. The usual suspects, Centaurs and Slaughtaurs, with their shield ability, they grind the combat to a halt while you wait for them to lower their shields. Another highlight were Dark Bishops, who felt unbalanced in terms of HP and damage dealt; they're quite difficult to kill, and two of them could easily decimate the player.

[ZioMcCall]

This project look good.My only suggestions are to fix the menu and reput the autofire at the mage's main weapon.

[PWAD Pete]

What about the menu needs to be fixed?

[ZioMcCall]

I think is a little not symmetrical.

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[Valherran]

Alrighty, I beat both Heretic and Hexen (only as the Fighter), so here is my report:

Heretic

---

It definitely had a brutal feel for it despite it being so basic in brutal-esque details, which I am sure that will improve later down the road. The weapons were nice, and the enemies were more challenging. Overall, it wasn't bad at all. However, I wanna go over some key things here:

1. The main menu was screwed up, it was displaying on the bottom right of my screen out of bounds. I have no idea why, but thankfully it was only doing it for that part and not the others.

2. The enemies need to switch to decaf. Most of them were moving and attacking too fast, plus the projectile speed was also insane. Currently, I would recommend cutting all enemy attack/projectile speed by 50%.

Sabreclaws need a 1 second wind up time for their jump attack like the Imps do in Brutal Doom, them latching on to your face instantly from a distance was just unfair.

Disciples need to quit moving around so damn much, it was a royal pain trying to kill them in open rooms.

The bosses seem unchanged, though I am sure that will happen later in the future. I did notice that the Serpent's fireball projectile art went missing, not sure what happened there.

3. The weapons definitely got beefed up and were satisfying to use, though some tweaks are in order.

Oak Staff - Decent weapon, just needs better attack animations.

Gauntlets - These things suck, they get you killed more than help you. Please remove the pull-in on hit mechanic that it uses from Doom's Chainsaw, and give it some more reach.

Elven Wand - Functions perfectly fine, nothing wrong here.

Ethereal Crossbow - Good weapon, damage seemed a little iffy. There is a noticeable gap in it's min-max damage output which sometimes lead to ammo problems.

Dragon Claw - Terrible weapon, It should not take 20 shots to down a single Gargoyle. It needs more damage, or alternatively you can triple its projectiles per shot.

Hellstaff - Scary weapon, nothing wrong here.

Phoenix Rod - Pretty much a 120mm tank cannon now, nothing wrong here.

Firemace - This thing nearly brought a tear to my eye, this weapon is godly.

4. The balance of the game can also be corrected with your RPG system. I'm not sure what you have planned for it, but currently if you level up, it should increase the caps on everything by 1 minor pickup amount per level to balance the game in its current state.

Hexen

---

Like Heretic, It definitely had a brutal feel for it despite it being so basic in brutal-esque details, which I am sure that will improve later down the road. The weapons were nice, and the enemies were more challenging. Overall, it wasn't bad at all. However, I wanna go over some key things here:

1. Again, the main menu was screwed up, it was displaying on the bottom right of my screen out of bounds. I have no idea why, but thankfully it was only doing it for that part and not the others.

2. Thankfully the enemies in Hexen weren't in Hammy Squirrel mode like in Heretic. But there are a couple that need some attention:

Afrit - For some reason this guy randomly likes to fly as high as it possibly can before ascending back down. This was quite annoying to deal with in melee combat.

Slaughtars - The most annoying enemy in Hexen due to that stupid immortality it gets when holding up the shield. If you can install a hit box on this guy to where we can hit him in places the shield doesn't cover, that would be amazing.

3. The weapons were interesting, though there was some things I want to address:

Axe/Shield - Pretty good starter weapon, much better than the old gauntlets.

Lightning Crossbow - This was unexpected to find as a Fighter, but not bad. However, the min-max damage margin is too wide. Sometimes it will 1 shot basic enemies, and other times it will take 2-3. If you could tighten that gap, that would be nice because it eats too much mana as it is to be doing that. I'm not sure why you made this weapon so inaccurate, but if that is here to stay, at least tighten the spread somewhat.

Sword/Shield - This weapon completely outclasses the axe, I would actually recommend removing the shield to make the axe relevant again, and maybe give it a melee parry as an alt fire since the shield blocks projectiles.

Hammer - This weapon kicks ass, no complaints here.

Quitis - I was disappointed with this one. The attack speed is way too slow for the damage it puts out, and the alt fire eats a lot of green mana instead of both at a smaller scale. For now, I would recommend this rework:

Turn Quitis into a 2 handed sword.
Keep the slow attack speed, but beef up the damage it puts out at the cost of like 2 of each mana per hit. (enough damage to 1 shot an Ettin)
Give it an overhead swing animation, and modify the existing side slashes.
Rework the alt fire by giving it a charge up meter. If you charge it up all the way, it will release a much large cutting wave with more damage at the cost of more mana.

4. Again, the balance of the game can also be corrected with your RPG system. I'm not sure what you have planned for it, but currently if you level up, it should increase the caps on everything by 1 minor pickup amount per level to balance the game in its current state. For Hexen, I strongly recommend you modify how many enemies spawn into the map and how frequently based on the difficulty.

That's all for now, I will come back to this when you add in more stuff and finish the other Hexen classes. Another nice thing you can add to this MOD, is to make Corvus and the Hexen roster playable in both their games, it would be interesting.

[Emmanuelexe]

I wanted know if there will be a zandronum version, it could be cool if coop or dm can be hosted with this mod !
Also, is it possible to get a Brutal Heretic/Hexen without the "Rpg" Part ? (exemple for dm mod) or do yo prefer to keep it ?

Very nice mod but yeah, the dragon claw and the gauntlets seem underpowered....too dangerous to use the gauntlets :s
But the combo with the stick (first weap) is really awesome, its what i wanted, is it possible to add new sprits for the attacks with the stick by the side? (to have a better animation for the stick attack)
The elven wand is really cool, like the pistol of doom who become a little machine gun (m4?) in brutal doom, the elven wand is more helpful now !
The Crossbow is pretty cool and badass with the tome of power ! The normal attack reminds me an attack from Heretic 2, very nice!

Is it possible to get some alternative fire (not with the tome of power), no with all the weapons but for some of them ?...

I dont know how You want make it but anyway, i like it yet !

I hope really a version for zandronum (i tested it with 2.1.2, it doesnt work....) So multiplayer can't be used, right ? (im a newbie with gzdoom, im always with zandronum).
The best is the way the game is fast paced with Smite meister, fast enemies, fast shot from Corvus, its badass!

[PWAD Pete]

Coop and DM can be hosted with gzdoom as well as zandronum. Zandronum is definitely better at that stuff though.

You just need to make a batch file and run it with some parameters. Let's look at an example I have for a deathmatch mod that me and a buddy made.

Code: Select all

gzdoom -iwad doom2.wad -host 2 -deathmatch -file DULAMaps.wad DULA-GZDoom.pk3 lights.pk3 brightmaps.pk3 +map MAP02

If you're joining a game, instead of -host (playernumbers), you'll do -join (host's IP Address).

I'm not so sure about making a straight forward Brutal Hexen/Heretic, since Sarge retains the rights to his brutal series.

For alternative fires, I mentioned something about it before, but I'll say again. I'm going to make alternative fires for the brutal heretic rpg weapons the same way the hexen ones work. You'll gain access to them as you level up.

I'll try to make one for zandronum, but I might be limited with what I can do there.

[Skrell]

Coop and DM can be hosted with gzdoom as well as zandronum. Zandronum is definitely better at that stuff though.

You just need to make a batch file and run it with some parameters. Let's look at an example I have for a deathmatch mod that me and a buddy made.

Code: Select all

gzdoom -iwad doom2.wad -host 2 -deathmatch -file DULAMaps.wad DULA-GZDoom.pk3 lights.pk3 brightmaps.pk3 +map MAP02

If you're joining a game, instead of -host (playernumbers), you'll do -join (host's IP Address).

I'm not so sure about making a straight forward Brutal Hexen/Heretic, since Sarge retains the rights to his brutal series.

For alternative fires, I mentioned something about it before, but I'll say again. I'm going to make alternative fires for the brutal heretic rpg weapons the same way the hexen ones work. You'll gain access to them as you level up.

I'll try to make one for zandronum, but I might be limited with what I can do there.

GREAT explanation!! I've been wondering this myself for quite awhile!!

[Emmanuelexe]

Thank you Seidolon ! I will try it! But what version do we need for zandronum ?
Yeah, what about if in a DM mod, we can get all the powers/magics possibility (like the alternatives fires) instead of having a basic "Player" ?
Anyway, having a Brutal Heretic to re-play all the heretic wads (original game or fan wad like Curse of D'sparil) is so awesome!

[PWAD Pete]

I haven't tested it out on zandronum, and I'm pretty sure it's not gonna run with it, but you can try if you want to. I'm going to make the rpg system work differently in DM, so the player has access to alt-fires and other stuff I'm adding.

Also, I forgot to mention this before, but you and your partner need Hamachi in order to connect with what I said above.

[Emmanuelexe]

Ah ok, thanks for the info about hamachi, but i tried with zandronum 2.1.2, it doesnt work...i will try with Zandronum 3 beta or maybe, i havent config it well for it.
Im at e1m6 in smite meister, the enemies are so fun and fast, its totaly awesome ^^ I wanted so much a brutal mod for this game (because Heretic/Hexen 3 will be always just a dream I think : /

Nice for the different rpg system in DM, i will host your mod in some videogames festival with DM! (this kind https://youtu.be/Lgmaxwe7cOQ you can see Heretic in the beginning)
Good luck for the next version, heretic is definitely my favorite FPS, before the mod yet, but now, it's so good! (with Hexen )

EDIT: Was it intentional to make some weapons who looks lik, like some weapons of heretic 2 or hexen 2 ?
The new crossbow reminds me an attack (one of the first one) of Heretic 2, the arrow attack (blue or green) is pretty like that, a big spread.
The Dragon claw+ tome of power reminds me the spike ball effect who is used with the Necromancer of Hexen2 when you have the tome of power with the third weapon (spikes thing).
The sound when you get a item (Crystal vial by exemple) reminds me sound when you get that in Hexen 2. But i think, those things are very cool since heretic & hexen are in the same world :3

It's actually balanced for a part, the elven wand is very effective but the dragon claw is underpowered (i think!)
What about some stuff like nerfind a BIT the Elven wand and buff the dragon claw (or cost less ammo?)

Anyways, im sure you will continue to make a great job, Good luck!

(also sorry for my english, im french... :s

The disciples of D'sparil can kill each others, same enemy i mean, teamkill => Disciples vs Disciples, is it made for ?

[beefjerky26]

Awesome Heretic mod, I've only played the first level, but already impressed with the upgraded automatic elven wand!

I have a problem though, I can't pick up the health flasks, I just walk over them.