What format should I create my levels in?

[mikenet2007]

Im using doombuilder 2 to make custom levels for doom 2. It has various formats to create a level in. For example "zdoom doom in doom format" or "zdoom doom in hexen format" I want the most versatile mode that allows me to do all the original doom stuff plus more. I think Im leaning toward one of the zdoom formats, but I dont know which one is best. I want to be able to do as much as possible, such as slopes, translucent effects, ect. I noticed I can make a doom 2 level using "zdoom doom in hexen format" would their be any advantages or disadvantages if doing this? Or do most people recomend a doom format instead? If some of the hexen effects are available that would be a plus but I also want all the original doom2 effects and options. Finding out what format you use personally and why would also be helpful info.

[edward850]

If you don't understand the difference between the formats, use UDMF.
Doom format means the Doom binary format (Vanilla Doom), and while it's extended with Boom features, it doesn't/can't really add more flexibility.
The Hexen format is the Hexen binary format. More room for more features, including ACS support, but structurally can't be extended and lacks some flexibility due to the lack of extension.
UDMF is the most flexible and compatible. You can do everything in UDMF, and will always be able to do everything as it is infinitely extensible with new features, due to how it's designed (it's a plain text phrased format, so it has no binary limitations).

[Kappes Buur]

http://zdoom.org/wiki/Map_format

[Enjay]

Yarp. UDMF. If you are using Doombuilder 2 and don't want your map to run in ports that don't support UDMF, then there's no real reason not to use it. It allows everything that the other formats do (and often does so in more logical ways) and more besides.

I have heard people say that the Hexen and UDMF formats are harder to learn than Doom format and that you should go through a progression of Doom to Hexen/UDMF. Personally, I don't believe this. I think that attitude exists mainly because that's how many mappers progressed because the formats became available in that order. I honestly do not believe that there is anything intrinsically harder about the other formats vesus the original Doom format. Indeed, some of the oddities and illogicalities of the original format may even be confusing to someone not already steeped in their traditions.

Some people (and it is perhaps worth pointing out that it is often Doom "traditionalists") suggest that learning in Doom format trains you how to make a fun, playable map first and then you can learn the "bells and whistles" of Hexen/UDMF later. Again, I personally don't hold to that. You can make a fun map in Doom format or make a horribly flashy but not fun map in UDMF; but you don't have to. You could even make a terrible map in Doom format or a great one in UDMF. I do not believe there is anything about the formats that inherently mean a newbie mapper will make a better map in Doom format than Hexen/UDMF.

The only strong argument I can think of for using Doom format is if you want to make maps for other ports. Doom/Boom format maps are almost universally supported so you would have a wider potential audience.

IMO, there isn't a particularly strong argument for making a Doom map in Hexen format any more (unless you are editing for a really out dated version of ZDoom or a port based on one for some reason, or using old - out dated - editing tools (which, as a stick-in-the-mud, I do)). The ZDoomHexen format exists to extend and break through many of the limitations that were present in the original Doom format. As such, it allows huge flexibility versus the original Doom format. However, it is not a format native to the original game and so it ties the map to ZDoom and derivative ports. So, the newer UDMF does everything that the Hexen format exists for but takes it a step further. To use ecology terms, UDMF fills the same niche as Hexen format but also out-competes it in a number of areas leaving the Hexen format at a distinct selective disadvantage.

Yes, I've been teaching ecology today.

[Blue Shadow]

Some people (and it is perhaps worth pointing out that it is often Doom "traditionalists") suggest that learning in Doom format trains you how to make a fun, playable map first and then you can learn the "bells and whistles" of Hexen/UDMF later.

I think that also stems from the fact that with Hexen format and UDMF, you have scripting, which these "traditionalists" think or believe acts as a distraction, prompting mapping beginners to focus more on that than map design or gameplay.


To me, I'd go for whatever I feel I'm comfortable with. After I found out about ZDoom and Hexen format few years ago, vanilla mapping became something from the past, to me. UDMF is now the thing, of course.

[mikenet2007]

Ok so of the following options...

Boom
Doom
Doom2
Doom Legacy
Edge
Eternity
Heritic
Hexen
Jdoom
Risen3d
Skulltag (Doom in Doom format)
Skulltag (Doom in Hexen format)
Strife
Zdoom (Doom in Doom Format)
Zdoom (Doom in Hexen Format)
Zdoom (Doom in UDMF Format)
Zdoom (Heritic in Hexen Format)
Zddom (Hexen)
Zdoom (Strife in Hexen Format)

It seems Zdoom (Doom in UDMF Format) is the most versatile?


To clarify, I have experience with map editing for Doom2 and Duke Nukem, it's just been a long time since Ive messed with any of this (over 4 years) so I don't remember everything. My current goal is to pick one format, relearn how it works, and be able to stick with it when things get more complex. Im wanting to do things like sky boxes, slopes, custom scripts, and I'll be using other programs to import custom texters, sounds, and monsters I've created in the past. Ive thought of also doing a completely new game with a complete new texture set, custom hud, monsters, and weapons. My fear is that I create something I like, then find out that the format that im using wont let me do skyboxes, slopes, or something advanced, then I have to start the level from scratch.

Good thing is I already remember many of the basics, I created a pretty decent level last night with basic lighting, aligned textures, well placed monsters, and just the right amount of ammo. Actually fun to play for an 8 hour build.

From what Im reading here Zdoom (Doom in UDMF Format) may be the way to go. I was torn between that and the zdoom in hexen format since that's what Ive used before.

[mikenet2007]

Does UDMF format have as versatile script editing and hexen format?

[Enjay]

Skyboxes, slopes and "something advanced" will all be possible in UDMF.

UDMF has all the scripting possibilities that ZDoomHexen does.

If you are familiar with ZDoomHexen mode, the move to UDMF should be pretty straight forward. Much of the time, the process will be basically the same as what you did in ZDoomHexen mode but you'll have a few more options when you want them. I guess that most of the differences you experience will be due to learning a new editor rather than from the map format.

[mikenet2007]

Thanks Enjay, for some reason I think I remember getting help from you a few years back. Might be my imagination but I remember the avatar, and vaguely remember the name. Anyway nice straight forward answer, thanks man. And everyone else for the help.

One other thing, suppose I want to switch formats down the road, that would mean retagging everything, and involve a lot of work right? I have old levels that were created in hexen format which I put months of effort into, but never finished. I assume if I wanted to continue working on those in UDMF format, it would be a bit of a hassle redoing all the scripts, and other things? The levels were extremely complex, and gigantic.

[Enjay]

Well, I certainly recognise your name anyway.

As for converting older maps, I haven't used it myself but... [wiki]wad2udmf[/wiki] that, I believe, should do the job.

[mikenet2007]

This may be totally off topic, but I want to share the level I made last night since everyone here is so helpful. I wasnt planning on publishing it, it's small and basic, but turned out to be very solid. Question is, where is the best place to submit levels? lol

My memory is terrible BTW

[Enjay]

A free file sharing site such as mediafire or zippy share is the way most people go if they just want to show something. A more permanent home for a finished project would be to upload the file to the idgames archive.

[mikenet2007]

Id like to see if I could upload it to the idgames archive. I need a direct link or email to submit though.

[Kappes Buur]

.....
As for converting older maps, I haven't used it myself but... [wiki]wad2udmf[/wiki] that, I believe, should do the job.

I can recommend this for converting older maps to a newer format

[mikenet2007]

I uploaded the map I made here...

http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=45921

Thanks for all the help guys