Another HD sprites project.. (OH NO! here we go again...)

[Doom64hunter]

The reason these projects fail is that people bitch and complain

Hmmmm... Ever thought that there might be a reason to that?
I suggest reading the posts above you.

Those people ALWAYS forget one simple fact: The sprites can always be improved, IF THEY EXIST.

Easier said than done. First, try and find some people that are actually willing to clean up a mess left by someone else. We don't have that many spriters in the community, and they're all somewhat busy with other things.
And I'm sure they won't be willing to pick something up that looks like it needs a ton of work to even look passable. So no rushing allowed.

There's a whole class of spriters that could not work from scratch, but could do wonders in the touch-up department. There's absolutely no reason for people to comment, if they simply do not like the concept.

Apart from the obvious exagerration about the amount of spriters, editing a low-res sprite is a completely different topic than making something like this look good. Small errors in detailing are much more noticable.
And seriously? The old "Don't like, don't post" shit again? Is criticism a foreign word around here?

Honestly, it's not like Sgt. Mark relies on constant 24/7 emotional support to make these sprites. The actual problem here is, and has always been the effort required to make them.
If the result isn't good, it needs to be improved upon, or redone. It makes no sense continuing something that you full well know will not look acceptable at all in the end, and to improve upon these sprites requires, again, effort.
If you're not willing to make that effort to fix the sprites, the project is doomed.

What you're basically saying is: "Make no attempt to criticise his work so he can rush out the project with minimal effort, no matter how bad it may look, then let him throw it onto the forums like a dead fish and hope that someone else will pick it up and improve on it."

Not gonna happen son.

Lots of people are gonna get anxious of you touching their "precious". Please continue doing what you do!

Our "precious"? I'm sorry, but since when are we opposed to the idea of modding this game exactly? This sentence just reeks of fanboy

[Zero X. Diamond]

Do you guys like... not get how this works?

Where is this eager young squadron of talented sprite artists who are just waiting to be deployed to polish up the turds you think need to be laid out for them? I've seen maybe two people ever show up in an HD sprites thread offering to help. The fact of the matter is that doing gigantic sprites is, at its heart, way the fuck different than doing small sprites. It's much simpler to draw a little man than it is to draw the same man ten times bigger and maintaining the same look as the original. All the base material in the world isn't going to suddenly summon forth legions of artists fighting each other for the chance to make things happen. It won't. And the worse the base material looks, the less likely anybody is to want to touch it. Then, even if you do get a bunch of people who want to work on them, the troubles begin anew. xX_DOOMGUY64_Xx thinks the imp has a really narrow face with slanted eyes and fangs, but SEPHIROTH97 is convinced it has more ape-like features. Then 4chanMemeLULZ shows up and insists that they're both wrong and the imp needs to be completely redrawn from square one if they want it to turn out properly. All the while, it's year two of the project and nothing has gotten done beyond scaling up the sprites and slapping some ugly misshapen features on them some guy drew long ago.

Am I saying what's being done here is wrong? No, I am not. Is it objectively the wrong thing to do or inherently not Doom-like? No, of course it isn't. But the fact still remains that what's been done so far does not look very promising--it all still looks quite a bit like Thief666's work, which was consistently blurry, misshapen, and pretty off-model. Maybe other people like that look, and that's fine. But don't think it's going to lead to something akin to say Street Fighter 2: HD or whatever. Not that I'm saying it's impossible or anything; just keep in mind that it's also possible that I could be struck by lightning while pushing a rowboat through a carwash while yodeling the theme to the Antiques Roadshow. What I'm saying is neither one is particularly likely to happen.

And as for criticism, seriously, shut the hell up. No matter what you're doing, if you post it on the internet, people are going to critique it. It doesn't matter whether you're the next Salvador Dali or the next Doomguy 2000, they're going to critique your work. That's life. If you're going to let other people's opinions effect you so much that it "takes the wind out of your sails," then you probably didn't have the gumption to see your work through to the finish in the first place. Should you still insist that everybody has to play nice and only say things that virtually fellate the author, might I suggest going here instead?

[mistrneb]

Huh, I don't visit very often, but it sounds like this project shouldn't be open to whoever wants to collaborate. Don't be restricted completely to what the original doom is, everybody agree to what as a team they should accomplish and how it should look in the end.

This is a very ambitious thing to do and I think if people argue on how it should look it will absolutely never get done. That is just not how things get done when developing things.

[Boreas249]

True, but however, some constructive criticism is needed.

SOME.

Now there are some of you who seem to be a bit too critical. You're not innocent either, ease up a little. This is something people want to do and see done. None of the naysaying crap, offer criticism where needed, but don't just ultimately down the project.

If it looms like crap in the end, or you feel it looks like crap, hey, at least someone tried, it's been done, now if you feel it could be done better, see about what you can do to raise the bar.

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

First, I think I stated this in the OP, but seems like it had no effect. So, I will repeat again: The goal of this project is not to perfectly rescale the original sprites, but to improve the monsters, to make them look more grim and more detailed, and adding new details to it. Some things in Doom are IMPOSSIBLE to be universally interpreted. Ask a bunch of guys to draw an Imp's face. Each one will draw it in a completely different way. Why? because it's not possible to know how his face would look like if it was increased. On his front sprites he seems to be pretty human-like, on his sided attack animations, he has no neck. On his pain animations, he has no mouth. Seriously, It's easier to ask for Christians to explain how they think heaven is than asking Doomers to explain how they think an Imp looks like. It's a never-ending discussion, and nobody will ever find a final concept. So, if somebody doesn't like the way some details are getting interpreted, I am sorry, but I am not going to change them, because your interpretation is not the same as mine, which is not the same as other guy.

Second, as I said, the goal is to improve the sprites, and even adding new concepts to them.
As you can see in this image, these sprites (in my opinion) blends perfectly fine with the HD textures pack. Stuff like different tones of the imp skin are very difficult to notice in-game with everything moving.
Take a look at this picture. Don't you really see ANY improvement at all?
http://i47.tinypic.com/bhftih.jpg

Third, no, I don't expect a legion of artists to pop up and help with this. So far I am doing this alone as secondary project, just taking my time. If somebody shows up to help me, I will be glad. If not, that's fine, I can try it. Even if I fail, there will be something left as base for other ones (oh yes, there will be others) interested on making another HD project. As I said, in case of my failure, and another HD project starts, its not even necessary for the new artists to reuse my sprites. They can fit a great placeholder role. For example, you can have a greatly detailed zombieman, and it will not look completely out of place if mixed with my Pinky in comparison that would look if mixed with the original Pinky, and it will act as a way to incentive the artist to continue.


Maybe I have started this thread too early, and should had something playable before starting the thread. But don't worry, this project will not look as bad as most of you are thinking, and at least will be something ok.

[Boreas249]

People just need to chill out really, that's all. Not saying they shouldn't offer just a little criticism here and there, but just bitching and moaning about it... that's a no-no.

If there's amything I find that plagues the gaming/modding communities the most, it's naysayers and people who just criticize things and down them so much they discourage the author or the team to the point where they just can the whole thing.

I've seen a lot of projects with loads potential fall because of this and I HATE it. Just chill out and let people work on what they wanna work on. No one is forcing you to download their work anyway, you don't like it, move on.

And you, Sargeant Mark, have gotten a lotta controversey and crap for your stuff, I mean some things were a little iffy but whatever, that's all in the past now. Moving on, bottom line is, I appreciate what you do. I may not always like some things in your mods or maps (though a lot of them are awesome,) but that you at least try and show off your effort so that people have the chance to enjoy it and judge for themselves, that's great.

So carry on.

[kb1]

The reason these projects fail is that people bitch and complain

Hmmmm... Ever thought that there might be a reason to that?
I suggest reading the posts above you.

Yeah, I've got my suspicions. I imagine they're those "small" people - the same kind of people that pull in front of you on the interstate, and then go 50 mph. They don't really have any control over their life or anything around them, but, damnit, they're in control now! They're gonna make you slow down, buddy. These are the same people that envy the "beautiful" people, the smart people, the successful people. Instead of encouraging success in themselves and others, they simply wallow in their messy misery. To boost their almost non-existant ego, they sling terds at anyone's brave, noble attempt to offer free-of-charge entertainment and enjoyment.

Those people ALWAYS forget one simple fact: The sprites can always be improved, IF THEY EXIST.

Easier said than done. First, try and find some people that are actually willing to clean up a mess left by someone else.[/quote]The word "First" in your previous sentence reiterates my point. Someone IS taking a first step. Actually, a second step. Sgt. Mark is doing exactly what I suggested - improving the first attempt. This opens the door to more improvement.

And I'm sure they won't be willing to pick something up that looks like it needs a ton of work to even look passable. So no rushing allowed.

Funny how you're so sure no one is willing to pick up the project...duh...

And seriously? The old "Don't like, don't post" shit again? Is criticism a foreign word around here?

You don't offer criticism, other than "give up, it's useless". Seriously, how does that help anything?

Honestly, it's not like Sgt. Mark relies on constant 24/7 emotional support to make these sprites. The actual problem here is, and has always been the effort required to make them.
If the result isn't good, it needs to be improved upon, or redone. It makes no sense continuing something that you full well know will not look acceptable at all in the end, and to improve upon these sprites requires, again, effort.
If you're not willing to make that effort to fix the sprites, the project is doomed.

No one has asked you to lift a finger.

What you're basically saying is: "Make no attempt to criticise his work so he can rush out the project with minimal effort, no matter how bad it may look, then let him throw it onto the forums like a dead fish and hope that someone else will pick it up and improve on it."

Nope, that's what you've been saying.

Not gonna happen son.

You're not my father, punk - I'll kick your ass.

[TheDarkArchon]

Not gonna happen son.

You're not my father, punk - I'll kick your ass.

Watch out guys, we've got a badass over here.

[Unholypimpin]

@thedarkarchon LAWL that just made my day =D

Id much rather see a voxel project that converts monsters into voxels rather than some crappy HD project that cancels after 1 or 2 monsters.

[kb1]

Not gonna happen son.

You're not my father, punk - I'll kick your ass.

Watch out guys, we've got a badass over here.

Yeah, I do rock.. Nah, I'm just venting. I guess the guy got what he was looking for...to piss me off. I do not understand what motivates people to piss in everyone's corn flakes. It's frustrating to see people, so deeply-invested in their self-made reality, that they feel justified to bite the hand that feeds them (and anyone else that interferes), with no remorse. I could feel empathy for such people, but, in this case, I don't feel it is worth expending the energy.

Back on topic (sorry), I have no idea how the sprites will turn out. Do they have problems? Sure. But, I do know that Doom HD sprites really sucked, before we had any to judge! And, that last set of screenshots looks pretty awesome to me.

Absolutely, provide criticism, where needed. But, balance that with praise when justified, otherwise you're not being honest. And, if you need to criticise each and every sprite, ok, but, know that your words should be chosen carefully - people *are* emotionally invested in their work, as a general rule. There's no need to "rip them a new one".

But, if you simply don't like the project, no, there's no need to post that. It's obvious that the project is important to some people. Why take that away?

You can get everything you want or need in life without hurting people.

[kb1]

And as for criticism, seriously, shut the hell up. No matter what you're doing, if you post it on the internet, people are going to critique it. It doesn't matter whether you're the next Salvador Dali or the next Doomguy 2000, they're going to critique your work. That's life. If you're going to let other people's opinions effect you so much that it "takes the wind out of your sails," then you probably didn't have the gumption to see your work through to the finish in the first place. Should you still insist that everybody has to play nice and only say things that virtually fellate the author, might I suggest going here instead?

Shut the hell up? I was just "critiquing your post." "That's life.". Irony sure is ironic, huh?

Seriously, I'm not sure, but I think you're smart enough to know that that's not what I said. The only thing I have a problem with is the "this is never gonna amount to anything - give up" attitude. That's just bullshit, and everyone knows it - it needs no explanation. But, yeah, what the hell is wrong with being nice? Nice doesn't mean avoiding criticism, it means not being an ass. I suppose maybe some people really don't get it - the proof is in this thread. I was merely suggesting that a slightly different approach to submitting criticism would be beneficial to all. And, BAM! everyone get's butthurt.

@thedarkarchon LAWL that just made my day =D

Id much rather see a voxel project that converts monsters into voxels rather than some crappy HD project that cancels after 1 or 2 monsters.

That's what I mean, why did you feel the need to use the word "crappy"? It's disgraceful, man. That's cruel, just for the sake of being cruel. Are you proud?

My reason for posting is to help provide a window of opportunity for the project to succeed.

I ask you to ask yourselves: "What's my reason for posting, in the future?" ("future", cause I'm done for now - yikes)

[Dortold]

Man, what is it with Mark's threads courting controversy?

Anyway, the sprites look decent, but I would prefer less silhouette detail, and more detail on the 'meat' of the sprite - at its centre. So less extra horns, and more just smoothing the edges, and adding basic details. Things like upping the resolution and sculpting the Imp's abs are a step in the right direction. What I'd really like to see is a whole sprite re-do -- from scratch. Ideally, it would include more angles and animation frames. Really, I would shit my pants if we got -- and I know this is pure fantasy -- Metal Slug quality sprites.

EDIT: Im a dum n forgot the purpose of dis tred, dur hurr

[Captain Ventris]

You're not my father, punk - I'll kick your ass.

We should just stop to appreciate the full-retard level of this statement.

[Unholypimpin]

That's what I mean, why did you feel the need to use the word "crappy"? It's disgraceful, man. That's cruel, just for the sake of being cruel. Are you proud?

My reason for posting is to help provide a window of opportunity for the project to succeed.

I ask you to ask yourselves: "What's my reason for posting, in the future?" ("future", cause I'm done for now - yikes)

I could go into detail why i used the word crappy but i already did go into detail. The problem with HD projects is they all use cheap photoshop tricks to "make things look better" when all they do is make them look worse.

[Boreas249]

Aw geez you guys.

No really, give it a rest. Sheesh. No one is kicking anyone's ass and we don't need a mass argument over a project, come on...