Vanilla Doom Behavior (Pixel Art)

[Xaser]

I am not surprised by Xaser repeating esselfortium's dribble and perpetuating this misinformation.

What "misinformation"? Nothing has been proven/disproven about Cyberdreams compatibility at all. There is no information to perpetuate one way or the other.

If either of you had read the indicated chapter of the text file, than it would have been obvious to both of you that the original mappers acknowledged the fact that some maps of Cyberdreams would not play perfectly, even with the vanilla engine which it was designed for.

Again, the quoted text is not relevant. You're trying to answer "I've heard that something in Cyberdreams is broken" with "It's also broken in vanilla" without actually knowing what the issue is, which doesn't make any sense. A more proper response would've been something like "Can you prove it's actually ZDoom's fault?" -- right now you're immediately assuming that it isn't.

[esselfortium]

I was just surprised that esselfortium would specifically target ZDoom as being screwy from what he heard rather from what he actually knows. I always thought of him having a reasonable grip on common sense, but if hearsay is good enough for him, so be it.

I am not surprised by Xaser repeating esselfortium's dribble and perpetuating this misinformation.

If either of you had read the indicated chapter of the text file, than it would have been obvious to both of you that the original mappers acknowledged the fact that some maps of Cyberdreams would not play perfectly, even with the vanilla engine which it was designed for.

You're splitting hairs and attempting to create an argument where one doesn't exist. If something consistently behaves one way in ZDoom and consistently behaves differently elsewhere, in a way that impacts gameplay, that's a discrepancy worth noting and looking into. The quoted sentence from the text file has no relevance to that at all.

I'm not "targeting ZDoom", though you seem to have targeted me.

In any case, kmxexii, who I heard about the issues from in the first place, is looking into it now so that something more substantial can be posted about it.

[kmxexii]

Essel is talking about something I mentioned in IRC. Cyberdreams worked pretty good for me in ZDoom (my standard port, playing with Doom (strict) compatibility) up until MAP14. The map itself worked fine, but when the Cyberdemons at the start teleported to their little platforms, they became stuck and couldn't move or attack, even though they were awake. Replaying things in r4002, I found the same behavior, except that if you shoot a cyberdemon with a pistol, they will break free and function normally. The thing is, you run Cyberdreams with a .DEH patch that removes all weapons except the pistol, and starts you off with zero bullets. You can punch a Cyberdemon, though, and after you back away it will start moving again. I wasn't really in the bugfixing mind when I played the WAD (all of this specific info besides stuck Cyberdemons I got when I pulled the files out again) so I just switched to PrBoom+ and everything ran pretty smoothly.

Something else I noticed - several levels in the WAD are supposed to kill Cyberdemons with crushing floors (that is, the floor raises and kills the Cyberdemon rather than the ceiling lowering). Just now re-testing in MAP30 (though you don't need to kill the Cyberdemons to beat the level), the floors won't do the job. I know what I should probably have done is write a bug report on these issues to see if I was missing something or if there's a legitimate need for a fix of some kind, but to be honest, I was ignorant of ZDoom's recent bugfixing drive, which had recently rectified a compat issue I'd reported months ago but which I'd stopped following.

[Gez]

Randy might be absent for months, and then suddenly fixing sixty bugs in a single week before disappearing again in a puff of smoke.

[kmxexii]

Randy might be absent for months, and then suddenly fixing sixty bugs in a single week before disappearing again in a puff of smoke.

Not that my statement is an attack on Randy's character (more revealing as an admission of my limited investment in ZDoom's overall culture)

[Mr. Tee]

There is a very, very, very large difference between compatibility as used by ZDoom and compatibility as used by the rest of the Doom community.

ZDoom works (when it doesn't, it's a bug). Even if the level is broken, it's supposed to work anyway; provided it has some legitimate reason to be working (e.g., it worked by chance in some version of Doom which had a bug which made it so that a problem in the level was ignored or whatever). The approach is to make sure levels will look correct and be completable.

No matter how "Doom Strict" you go, there will be plenty of stuff like this; where ZDoom will stubbornly not behave exactly like Doom did. It'll be compatible, you'll be able to play the levels, but it will not be a 100% identical copy that could play back demos without desynch.

This is what ZDoom means by compatibility. You can still play levels correctly.
[...]

I understand your point of view, and in most cases I am inclined to agree with you.

Nevertheless, in this particular scenario, the OP mentioned how two compatibility flags that _already exist in ZDoom_ aren't being set properly when selecting Doom (Strict). The OP isn't trying to inflict changes upon ZDoom that aren't already programmed in, he is merely identifying two flags that in my opinion should be part of the Doom (Strict) selection.

It's all just a matter of adding those flags to that setting simply because those flags already exist and ZDoom can manage these compabitibilities, not to justify that ZDoom can work identically as Doom did.

EDIT: Punctuation.

[shoober]

Go play Chocolate Doom, or if you want features X, Y and Z, go play PrBoom+ and Eternity.

I tried out PrBoom+ and found it to be like an outdated Eternity. I think the last PrBoom+ build was from 2008. They both have the same menu background and options menu font, so they must be similar. Except that Eternity is still getting releases. For what I'm trying to do, Eternity is exactly what I'm looking for. Vanilla doom behavior with updated graphics and mouselook.

I was thinking about texture filtering and pixel art. If I was the artists who made the monster sprites, and game textures, and someone else came along and blurred all my pixels, how it would make me feel. I think pixel art is supposed to be seen without a texture filter. I would feel someone would not appreciate my pixel art if they blurred all my pixels together. I personally don't like seeing 8-bit or even 16-bit Mario with a texture filter, he needs to let his pixels shine. I'm pretty sure that's how the pixel artists want you to see him. They don't want his pixels smoothed together, they want his pixels to stand out.

So what do you guys think about a texture filter, in regards to pixel art and how video game artists would want you to see there pixel art?

[Gez]

Are you sure you didn't confuse PrBoom with PrBoom+?

[Xaser]

The thread title change is really confusing. Now the first couple of pages make no sense compared to the title.

re: filtering -- I had a lengthy-ish post on the subject on DW somewhere, but I can't find it ATM. Long story short, it was just me saying "I think texture filtering is ugly" for the exact same reasons you (shoober) state. It looks much better to see the pixels in all their crisp glory than be subject to a blobby blur.

[Gez]

On the topic of pixels and filters, my opinion is "to each their own boat-floaters, and more power to them".

I find that the GZDoom HQ filters work well on fonts at least.

[shoober]

Are you sure you didn't confuse PrBoom with PrBoom+?

Yes I did. My bad. I'm going to try out PrBoom+. It has these settings that can make Doom behave like v1.2-v1.9. That's really cool. Well at least PrBoom does, I'm going to check if PRBoom+ has the same settings.

The thread title change is really confusing. Now the first couple of pages make no sense compared to the title.

re: filtering -- I had a lengthy-ish post on the subject on DW somewhere, but I can't find it ATM. Long story short, it was just me saying "I think texture filtering is ugly" for the exact same reasons you (shoober) state. It looks much better to see the pixels in all their crisp glory than be subject to a blobby blur.

Yeah, I was thinking of starting a new thread about pixel art but changed my mind. It still works I guess lol. Its like two threads subjects into one.

I remember reading somewhere a guy who said that Quake 1 is supposed to be played in software mode. I thought about it, and he might of been right. GLQuake came out after the initial release, so it might change certain things on how the game artists would want you to do there work. I've heard the lighting looks alot better in software mode then GLQuake. There also seems to be a problem with the water in GLQuake. I found this article about the differences between software and GLQuake. I think I might replay Quake 1 in software mode lol.

[Gez]

Are you sure you didn't confuse PrBoom with PrBoom+?

Yes I did. My bad. I'm going to try out PrBoom+. It has these settings that can make Doom behave like v1.2-v1.9. That's really cool. Well at least PrBoom does, I'm going to check if PRBoom+ has the same settings.

Look what it says in the little table about the 1.2 complevel...

As for Quake being made to be played in software, it is true to some extent -- the GLQuake renderer did not support some of the features that they put in the software renderer, such as overbright light levels. It doesn't mean that it isn't possible to get Quake looking its best with an OpenGL renderer, though; just that id did a rushed job with the GL version. [In fairness, OpenGL was still a new standard at the time. It had less features, more limitations, and programmers weren't as familiar with it then as they are now.]

[shoober]

I was just using PrBoom+, and have decided to use it instead of Eternity. It does support the -complevel parameter and its apparently more accurate than regular PrBoom. I would say that PrBoom+ is more accurate then Eternity. So its a keeper. My dream source port lol. I'm not going to use mouselook anymore either.

I think the only thing that OpenGL can't render correctly in Quake is the water warp when you are under water. The lighting effects, non-filtered textures, and square particles can be toggled on and off (in QuakeSpasm). Its kind of like the fuzz effect with Doom. OpenGL can render everything like the software render except certain special software render effects.