Vanilla Doom Behavior (Pixel Art)

[shoober]

I have my compatibility settings set to "Doom (strict)", but for some reason, this setting remains disabled. I looked up the setting on the wiki and found this:

Monsters get stuck over dropoffs (Yes/No)
This option disables the logic that allows monsters to move away from positions where they hang over a tall dropoff (e.g. the edge of a lift.) Originally a monster got stuck in such a situation. Normally there shouldn't be any need to revert to the old behavior.

There's also this setting called "Sector sounds use center as source". With compatibility options at "Doom (strict)", this remains disabled, but the wiki says this about it:

Sector sounds use center as source (Yes/No)
Normally when sectors make noise, ZDoom uses the point of that sector which is closest to the listener as the source of the sound. (Ensuring that large sectors make sound all throughout) Enable this option to make ZDoom revert to the old behavior which caused these sounds to originate from the center of their sector.

So I'm kind of confused, it says with these settings turned on, will use the old behavior. But, it still stays off when using "Doom (strict)" option. So, if I want Doom to behave as if I were playing it in DOSBox, would I turn these settings on or off?

[Gez]

If you want Doom to behave as if you were playing in DOSBox, get Chocolate Doom.

ZDoom's compatibility options are not geared towards slavish adherence to perfectly identical gameplay. They are geared towards making levels playable. If a bug is absolutely needed to make a level playable, then it gets a compat option; if however fixing a bug does not break any level, there is no reason for it to be compat optioned.

That means that some things that aren't really needed to make vanilla levels work aren't part of Doom Strict. Deal with it.

[wildweasel]

If you want Doom to behave as if you were playing in DOSBox, get Chocolate Doom.

Considering his other posts, that won't be optimal, as Chocolate Doom won't allow him to disable autoaim or enable mouselook.

[Gez]

Then I guess he can try Eternity?

[shoober]

I've tried chocolate doom before, and it just doesn't look as nice as ZDoom does (even when I set the resolution to 2048x1536). ZDoom really makes the graphics clear and sharp. This is another reason I love ZDoom.

Well, I guess what I'm going after, is getting ZDoom as close as possible to having it run in DOSBox. While it may not be as accurate, all the improvements that ZDoom offers like sharper graphics and mouselook really make it my favorite source port.

So, about those two compatibility settings, should I leave them on or off if I'm after getting Doom close as possible to having it act like it would in DOSBox.

EDIT:

I just tried Eternity, AND I LOVE IT! It was exactly what I was looking for. Gez you know everything about Doom. Thanks for telling me about this source port.

[Demon!]

I like the compatibility options - they were one of the main reasons why I decided to use zDoom.

I am very strict about oldschool feel and gameplay, and I can say that the compat options satisfy me. I turn nearly all of them on and I am happy

I don't really see the point of Chocolate Doom - if I want to get a 100% Vanilla Doom experience (with low-res graphics and all), I'd rather use DosBox. It's easy to set up and use. And I'll know that I'm playing the true original game, which feels awesome. Moreover, I can run any version I want (from 0.99 to Ultimate).

[NeuralStunner]

I don't really see the point of Chocolate Doom - if I want to get a 100% Vanilla Doom experience (with low-res graphics and all), I'd rather use DosBox.

Chocolate Doom has integrated DeHackEd and Sprite/Flat merge support, so you don't have to patch/unpatch the shit out of your files.

[Mr. Tee]

If you want Doom to behave as if you were playing in DOSBox, get Chocolate Doom.

ZDoom's compatibility options are not geared towards slavish adherence to perfectly identical gameplay. They are geared towards making levels playable. If a bug is absolutely needed to make a level playable, then it gets a compat option; if however fixing a bug does not break any level, there is no reason for it to be compat optioned.

That means that some things that aren't really needed to make vanilla levels work aren't part of Doom Strict. Deal with it.

[...]

If you want Doom to behave as if you were playing in DOSBox, get Chocolate Doom.

Gez, I think your post is not fair.

If the OP is using the Strict Doom compatibility settings which should (judging from the name) adhere as much as possible to original Doom, and this feature is working incorrectly, he should not be told "Go play Chocolate Doom if you want original Doom".

I am willing to bet anyone who wants to use the Strict Doom compatibility settings are not worried about playability, but simply strict adherance to Doom compability as the name implies. Just my opinion, but I'd call this a slight bug.

EDIT: Mis quoted Gez the first time, sorry.

[Gez]

There is a very, very, very large difference between compatibility as used by ZDoom and compatibility as used by the rest of the Doom community.

ZDoom works (when it doesn't, it's a bug). Even if the level is broken, it's supposed to work anyway; provided it has some legitimate reason to be working (e.g., it worked by chance in some version of Doom which had a bug which made it so that a problem in the level was ignored or whatever). The approach is to make sure levels will look correct and be completable.

A perfect illustration of this is this recent bug report. Instead of adding a compatibility option to make the level behave as expected, Randy merely disabled the lines, because there is another way to go back so it's not game-breaking if these teleports don't work anymore.

No matter how "Doom Strict" you go, there will be plenty of stuff like this; where ZDoom will stubbornly not behave exactly like Doom did. It'll be compatible, you'll be able to play the levels, but it will not be a 100% identical copy that could play back demos without desynch.

This is what ZDoom means by compatibility. You can still play levels correctly.




Now what Doom community people mean by compatibility is "I want it to behave exactly like Doom (except for feature X, Y, or Z), including bugs and glitches and whatever." This is not compatibility; emulation or faithfulness would be better terms. Anyway, if this is what you want, then ZDOOM IS NOT THE PORT FOR YOU. Is that clear?

You cannot play a map in ZDoom "Doom Strict" mode as a way to find if there are bugs when played in vanilla; you cannot play a map in "Boom Strict" mode as a way to find if there are bugs when played in Boom. Strict compatibility is not perfect adherence to specifications. If you run ZDoom in Doom Strict mode and think that makes of you a Doom purist, then you are in denial. Go play Chocolate Doom, or if you want features X, Y and Z, go play PrBoom+ and Eternity.

[esselfortium]

@Gez: In fairness, the reason why people expect the exact "emulation" you speak of is because somebody always manages to find some edge case that depends on it, which ZDoom may or may not have accounted for with its compatibility.txt hacks. I heard recently that a couple of maps in Cyberdreams were screwy in ZDoom, though I'm not sure if that's accurate or not.

[Kappes Buur]

In fairness, ZDoom is what it is.

From the very first release in 1998 on, it was made clear in what direction Randi wanted to take
his port, and it was not strict adherence to, but expansion of the original DOOM.

In fact, the various compatibilities were added, over time, to more or less appease some mappers
and as such broaden the spectrum of ZDoom. And that has worked out very well so far. Therefore,
nobody in their right mind should expect a "true" DOOM replay.

..... I heard recently that a couple of maps in Cyberdreams were screwy in ZDoom, though I'm not sure if that's accurate or not.

I am astounded, and a bit dismayed, that you would quote such hearsay.

While Cyberdreams was designed for the DOOM2 format, it states in the accompanying text file,
that the player should be prepared for some quirks when playing the levels.

from the text file:

ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
³ 3. THE BEHAVIOUR OF CYBERDREAMS ³
ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ

......
Still, the main reason to write this chapter in the text file is to explain
some of the important things that can happen while playing the adventure and
which can be considered as "errors", though they are just limitations of
the Doom engine. Most of them are on behalf of how the Cyber is killed.
.....

[esselfortium]

..... I heard recently that a couple of maps in Cyberdreams were screwy in ZDoom, though I'm not sure if that's accurate or not.

I am astounded, and a bit dismayed, that you would quote such hearsay.

Uh? What exactly is "astounding and dismaying" you here?

[Xaser]

..... I heard recently that a couple of maps in Cyberdreams were screwy in ZDoom, though I'm not sure if that's accurate or not.

I am astounded, and a bit dismayed, that you would quote such hearsay.

I am astounded, and a bit dismayed, that you would protest this without actually providing any proof that the statement you're "astounded, and a bit dismayed" about is in any way misinformed.

Non-sarcastic version: What you quoted from cyberdreams.txt says absolutely nothing about what the "errors" are, so you have not actually contributed anything to the discussion at all (aside from derailing it for some odd reason). If you were specific, we could either identify an issue as something to be added to compatibility.txt or weed it out as a "vanilla did this so it's okay" sort of thing. Instead we get a vague reference to a textfile that tells us nothing, and an accusation of "this is heresay!" despite the person in question already telling us that it was. tl;dr: What was the point of this?

On a related note, if there is an issue with a map that appears to be largely broken in ZDoom despite working in other ports, definitely bugreport it if it hasn't been done so. That's exactly what compatibility.txt is for and the devs have been good about adding exceptions for these edge cases once identified (if doable). The trouble is that nothing can be done if nobody identifies them, of course.

[Kappes Buur]

I was just surprised that esselfortium would specifically target ZDoom as being screwy from what he heard rather from what he actually knows. I always thought of him having a reasonable grip on common sense, but if hearsay is good enough for him, so be it.

I am not surprised by Xaser repeating esselfortium's dribble and perpetuating this misinformation.

If either of you had read the indicated chapter of the text file, than it would have been obvious to both of you that the original mappers acknowledged the fact that some maps of Cyberdreams would not play perfectly, even with the vanilla engine which it was designed for.

[Gez]

For what it's worth, I replayed through Cyberdreams in GZDoom a few months ago and saw no problem whatsoever.