[release] The Phobos Directive, direct to you

[SamVision]

Looking past some of the attitude, I can sort of see where his criticism is coming from.

[Jimmy]

the mod wasn't properly playtested.

Oh nice, this again.

Listen. I've got to get this shit off my chest. You've done this before and it pissed me right the hell off. Now you're doing it again.

Obviously you've now run out of legitimate, backable concerns to bring up about the WAD (which you could've been nice about to begin with) and you've reverted back to baseless attacks on it, its creators, and other users. You did exactly the same on Stronghold, a matter that exploded so ludicrously out of proportion that I still can't quite get over how badly the project was received. I also feel partly responsible for it because I was a major contributor to the project in the two-and-a-half years I was part of the team, so I took most of the flak personally. Mainly, I think, because it mostly was personal, without needing to be at all.

It was that shit that pretty much made me go off working with ZDoom and GZDoom completely - Stronghold's reception was such a catastrophic failure across the community that I felt I just wasn't cut out for working on huge-scale projects, as I had been originally. (Which is why I'm doing easier-to-manage Boom-compatible megawads on my own now.) Of course I should've persisted with mapping and modding more extensively for ZDoom in order to better my skills, but by the point of Stronghold's release (and the flamewars that occurred even before that) I felt so sick of having all the work I and the rest of the team had put into it being basically destroyed that I couldn't go on.

There is nothing more annoying in this world than to work on something for ages - years, perhaps - to know that it is something that can be loved and appreciated - and then have it condemned and crushed needlessly at the end of it. And then, for good measure, being told that you're substandard as well. All the work is put in, and nothing is gained in return. It all feels like a tremendous waste of time and energy. I look back on Stronghold now and it's hard to imagine that it wasn't two-and-a-half years that could've been spent doing something less likely to be ripped apart like that.

It's one thing to criticise and bring up legitimate concerns about a mod that falls below your expectations. It's another thing entirely to belittle the production team behind it and effectively say they're not doing their job properly - it contributes nothing to the discuss and absolutely eradicates all hope of the project's betterment. You seem to bring nothing but condescension, vitriol and flamebait to every major project that didn't please you personally. Your opinion is just that. You are not right. You are not wrong. You have a differing set of standards to the people who happened to be in charge of this particular project. You have everything to gain by being nice about it - but if you're a dick, just no-one will listen to you.

So lighten up, please.

Okay, I'm done with this thread. I'll see you guys in Australia.

heh

Sarcastic thought your point may be, there are two clear differences in this situation:
(1) The author of Doomguy's Warzone was being sardonic and insulting back.
(2) No-one liked Doomguy's Warzone - it was just crap. At least some people like this mod.

[wildweasel]

(1) The author of Doomguy's Warzone was being sardonic and insulting back.
(2) No-one liked Doomguy's Warzone - it was just crap. At least some people like this mod.

(3) All of my comments were regarding the mod and only the mod. At no point did I directly insult the author or the people who played the mod.

[zap610]

(1) The author of Doomguy's Warzone was being sardonic and insulting back.
(2) No-one liked Doomguy's Warzone - it was just crap. At least some people like this mod.

(3) All of my comments were regarding the mod and only the mod. At no point did I directly insult the author or the people who played the mod.

Yet you insulted a user earlier in this thread.

[esselfortium]

the mod wasn't properly playtested.

Oh nice, this again.

Listen. I've got to get this shit off my chest. You've done this before and it pissed me right the hell off. Now you're doing it again.

The wad actually seems to have not been properly playtested.

Obviously you've now run out of legitimate, backable concerns to bring up about the WAD (which you could've been nice about to begin with) and you've reverted back to baseless attacks on it, its creators, and other users. You did exactly the same on Stronghold, a matter that exploded so ludicrously out of proportion that I still can't quite get over how badly the project was received. I also feel partly responsible for it because I was a major contributor to the project in the two-and-a-half years I was part of the team, so I took most of the flak personally. Mainly, I think, because it mostly was personal, without needing to be at all.

It was that shit that pretty much made me go off working with ZDoom and GZDoom completely - Stronghold's reception was such a catastrophic failure across the community that I felt I just wasn't cut out for working on huge-scale projects, as I had been originally. (Which is why I'm doing easier-to-manage Boom-compatible megawads on my own now.) Of course I should've persisted with mapping and modding more extensively for ZDoom in order to better my skills, but by the point of Stronghold's release (and the flamewars that occurred even before that) I felt so sick of having all the work I and the rest of the team had put into it being basically destroyed that I couldn't go on.

There is nothing more annoying in this world than to work on something for ages - years, perhaps - to know that it is something that can be loved and appreciated - and then have it condemned and crushed needlessly at the end of it. And then, for good measure, being told that you're substandard as well. All the work is put in, and nothing is gained in return. It all feels like a tremendous waste of time and energy. I look back on Stronghold now and it's hard to imagine that it wasn't two-and-a-half years that could've been spent doing something less likely to be ripped apart like that.

I'm not exactly sure where you've gotten the idea that Jenesis has been better-received than Stronghold 'because it isn't a GZDoom project'.

If 20 or so of Jenesis's 32 maps were near-identical clones of one another with bad or nonexistent gameplay, it would probably get the same backlash that Stronghold got from unmet expectations. Choice of source port doesn't really factor into it, though it has historically formed a very convenient excuse for a small subset of the community to brush off any and all complaints with their work.

So lighten up, please.

You just wrote an essay about this, dude.

heh

Sarcastic thought your point may be, there are two clear differences in this situation:
(1) The author of Doomguy's Warzone was being sardonic and insulting back.
(2) No-one liked Doomguy's Warzone - it was just crap. At least some people like this mod.

I was quite serious. Where do you draw the line, and why should someone else's opinion determine what anyone else can think about a project? Doomguy's Warzone was at least amusing. This is just... no.

[Jimmy]

I'm not exactly sure where you've gotten the idea that Jenesis has been better-received than Stronghold 'because it isn't a GZDoom project'.

If 20 or so of Jenesis's 32 maps were near-identical clones of one another with bad or nonexistent gameplay, it would probably get the same backlash that Stronghold got from unmet expectations. Choice of source port doesn't really factor into it, though it has historically formed a very convenient excuse for a small subset of the community to brush off any and all complaints with their work.

No, that wasn't quite my point. I only migrated to Boom mapping because in many ways, it's simpler than ZDoom/GZDoom mapping. You don't have to consider things like multiplayer-compatible scripts, bug-riddled new weapons, fancy custom effects and cutscenes that have to be skippable. Jenesis has only just been released so I can't say how well it's been received.

You just wrote an essay about this, dude.

I write essays about mice.

[Tango]

for some reason everyone seems to think essel is a bigot with his head up his ass who has no idea what he's talking about, but if you look at his history you'll see he's done nothing but produce consistently incredible works that are a) gorgeous and b) fun to play. and even if darkhaven is being an ass he's pretty accurate; all i see is a bunch of meaningless detail (and in places a complete lack of it, which i don't understand given the time frame for the mapset). when i think of successful refinement of sub-par visuals, which if i understand correctly is the project's aim, wads like Crucified Dreams comes to mind, where you can see that Afterglow made sure that every map looked like a gem.

and, in addition to that, you have wads like this that took a few weeks to make and still look considerably more impressive than all the projects of this screenshot i have seen. what the hell is going on here? what is this and why is someone still doing this in 2011? this project is being released and meanwhile Khorus is over on Doomworld finishing up a megawad he made in the past *month*, which is much better looking (despite its vanilla limitations) and, judging by the screenshots, took a much greater amount of creativity than, say, this, which by comparison is part of a project that is a) for an advanced engine with endless features and zero limitations regarding visuals and b) took a much longer time to produce.

[Machalite]

Before this thread hits the point of no return, I'd just like to say what I have to say about this wad. It's just average to me as it is. It was totally functional, but extremely inconsistent overall. Why would one of the two pairs of light amplification goggles be an inventory item, and the other not? Why drop a whole ton of inventory stimpacks in the first level, but almost completely abandon them throughout the rest of the mapset? Why does the portable armor give mega armor, when it's clearly green? The shotgun alt-fire is the only weapon upgrade that got any use from me, because it's the only one that fundamentally changed the way I played the game. Even then, only by allowing me to shoot the shotgun faster. These things all feel superfluous, but inoffensive. They didn't get in the way, or feel like they detracted from the experience.

What addition to the formula I did like was the objective system, even though I was disappointed that it wasn't as developed as I expected. It helped me keep track of what I needed to do in each level; I would have killed for something similar while playing Hexen, because none of that is easy to juggle while going back-and-forth between levels. What disappointed me about it, though, was that I expected the level progress to be non-linear, which was anything but true. Although you can go to any of the levels at any time, the only real reason to do so is to see what objectives you need to complete first to get to where you need to go there, and then heading to the right level first. Allowing you to kill half of the enemies in a level before you need to go there is, again, unnecessary. There's not even an excess of resources to justify going back to completed levels for. It would have worked just as well as a conventional mapset.

The map designs are all over the place. E1M9 literally felt pointless, considering that my reward was a fight with a cyberdemon. Organizing the level progress differently than just "E1M2, E1M3, etc" was a little bit confusing, if only because it meant I had to enter each level first to figure out the order I needed to complete the levels in. Again, I must stress that making this a hub mapset doesn't provide any benefit. Providing something in E1M1 to direct you to the next key you need would be an improvement, and make the whole experience flow better. As for aesthetics, it's no Phobos: Anomaly Reborn. I know you're trying to maintain the appearance and layout of the original levels, but I don't think you came anywhere near the right balance of old-vs-new. Nice looking objects, like ceiling-mounted pipes and reactor... things, are juxtaposed against labyrinthine, flat, and dull spaces. Half of the rooms that are adapted from their Ultimate Doom incarnations just didn't receive enough treatment, and appear almost abstract in comparison to the new areas you added. And... E1M4 has a computer monitor on the ceiling.

There's nothing intrinsically bad about this wad, but there is so much that could be done to make it better, and actually memorable. I hope I've provided something that helps everyone involved improve.

And Tango: different people have different mapping abilities, and varying levels of determination. If anything, don't hold everyone to the same standards. That's why "Valve Time" became a thing.

[wildweasel]

For the record, both involved parties in the previous argument have received appropriate administrative action in the form of one warning per person. The fact that darkhaven now appears as "banned" is because of an excess of warnings, not specifically for his behavior in this thread.

Please feel free to carry out civil discussion about The Phobos Directive.

[Xaser]

Hmm, I'm going through this and figure I'll share my thoughts as things go along.

• I'll go ahead and say it once and try not to bring it up again, but the architecture/detailing here seems really off to me. Weirdly-aligned textures (specifically startan on walls), bare rooms with one or two intricately-detailed objects, and strange computery structures are prevalent a lot. Seems very haphazard in its approach as a result... so yeah, not a fan of the visuals thus far. I'll try and point out cool things and/or not return to this item since it's already a big point of contention.
• The initial music not-looping seems more like a bug than a feature, to me. It still had my head scratching for a few seconds even though I'd previously read that the music isn't intended to loop. The silence does not suit things... it might work if there were plenty of ambient sounds to back it up, but that isn't the case.
• Hmm, just noticed that this map is a Hangar remake. Definitely different enough to not make this just KDiZD all over again, so that's one fear erased.
• Okay. So there's one ambient sound here... a cricket chirping. On Phobos? Feels out of place...
• Just turned the reactor on and I'm surprised at how dark everything still is. I was unsure whether I needed to complete another objective to finish this up, but no, that seems about right... the teleporting mob may have been a bit much, too.
• Why do the shotgun guys have automatic shotguns? What was the meaning behind this? Why don't I get an automatic shotgun?
• Why are demons allowed to insta-bite me when they get ~100 units away? This sort of monster-buffing is fine if the player is given enough equipment to compensate, but I've already used up all my stimpacks and cannot for the life of me find any more. I've been treading on 2 health for a while now... and I'm out of shells.
• Made it to E1M2... still no health in sight until ascending those stairs, though. I might have to retry this later on a lower difficulty, because the enhanced monsters are really kicking my ass here.
• I actually sorta like the circular architecture here. Not sure why.
• Okay, E1M5 now... this is definitely hub-ish, though I'm still not sure what my overall objective is besides "get a plasma rifle" at this point. Not sure if I'll know where to go next.
• Undead Imps can kill me in one hit at 100 HP?
• Got a shotgun upgrade... not quite sure what it does, though. Damage buff? can't tell just yet since there aren't any pinkies around.
• I have officially sworn off saving/loading and am instead just using 'resurrect' whenever I die. Thank the auto-sergeants for that.
• Is the shooty-switch in the western area that raises the pillar supposed to be a one-time-only secret? I got knocked off the pillar and can't it to lower again. Once-only secrets suck.
• Goddamnit -- I missed a switch and now I have to circle back through every area I've already cleared just to reach it?
• Just noticed that the upgrade seems to have given the shotty an alt-fire. The sound doesn't sync up with the animation, though, which seems a bit tacky.
• [EDIT] One more after posting this thread and finishing up: Just beat E1M5, and... well, I don't have a clue which of the many teleporters I need to visit now. Whelp... guess I'll have to experiment next time.

...And that's all for now. I'm taking a break for the night, since I really need to take care of some stuff that's not Doom.

I'm not trying to be overly negative, but the gameplay mechanics seem to be a bit frustrating at times... I definitely think the reimaginings of the maps are imaginative, though the execution in the visual department lacks a bit. Not that the latter matters too much if there's enough awesome or fun, but I haven't hit the sweet spot on either yet.

[Doomguy 2000]

I played this a little bit and quickly found this uninteresting. I like the objectives idea but I just don't like the confusing layout where you can get easily lost. The stimpacks on the go thing is interesting but the inventory icon could of at least been centered instead of in the top left corner. Plus the level I played in looked dark and boring.

[Tango]

it's not an issue of differing capabilities, nor is motivation a valid excuse for making something sub-par and then claiming it doesn't hold water just because you "didn't feel like it." ReX has been part of the doom community for how many years?

also, The Ultimate Doomer: oh yes, that must be it. Darkhaven, from the start, has always been so full of hate towards ReX that he's intent on bringing this project down even though it doesn't deserve any of his comments!!!1 he's clearly just trying to personally attack the team because they all bullied him as a child!!!11

Only to those who don't like this kind of mod.

right, so let me rephrase this. the mod only "looks bad" and only "has glaring issues" for someone who "doesn't like this kind of mod." and what kind of mod is this? oh yeah. it's for GZDoom. that's why everyone is finding so many "problems" with it! if only it were for vanilla, surely they would appreciate this advanced architecture. oh, wait, hold on, the vanilla engine isn't capable of handling such complex, visually interesting design!

Jimmy:

(2) No-one liked Doomguy's Warzone - it was just crap. At least some people like this mod.

so suddenly it's ok to attack a mod/author just as long as everyone else is doing it? and therefore the only reason darkhaven is being labeled as such a dick is because he's in disagreement with everyone else?

why does the (g)zdoom community seem so quick to dismiss any critics as senseless bullshit dickheads whose only goal is to publicly attack and insult the authors? yes, darkhaven was extremely blunt, but essel got a similar response (we're not getting paid for this! making levels varied and interesting wasn't our goal! you hate us! etc etc) when he criticized Stronghold in his review on DRDTeam.

one more thing:
2005
2011

[wildweasel]

Tango, enough. That discussion should be over by now. Two people have already been punished tonight - please don't become the third.

[esselfortium]

I'd really like to hear the answers to some of his questions. Can we just this once do without the mod-trolling?

[wildweasel]

I'd really like to hear the answers to some of his questions. Can we just this once do without the mod-trolling?

Then the questions can be answered in a civil manner.