[Stronghold] Final version 1.0 out!

[esselfortium]

To me, Stronghold isn't fun in single-player. However, it is a absolute blast in multiplayer when you run it in Skulltag. The monster count on each wave is multiplied by the player count so you can more monsters coming after you based on the number of players you have. Which is awesome. I think the visuals are fine; I don't mind the re-use of textures as almost every video game does this.

Okay, and it is your right to feel that way. I respect that you feel differently than me about it, and surely you'd allow me the same courtesy--

About the criticism, honestly, anything can be improved in some way; but, taking it to extreme levels where it involves arguments over a team's hard work that they have developed for us, for free, is irrational.

--god damn it.

IMO, having a hissy fit over a game or mod that is developed for free where there is no money involved at all is ludicrous. If there was money involved, that would be a different story.

Who's having a hissy fit, besides you and Graf?

What could have said as criticism to Stronghold, should have been something like this: "I think this mod is pretty cool, it re-uses some texture and architecture a little bit, but overall, it's pretty damn good!" Short, concise and to the point! No argument, no drama.

But I don't think that, so that's not what I said.

You see? That is the kind of criticism that we need to hear. Not a huge wall of text trying to explain every little small detail using words that require to go look up the definition of on the internet, hrm, essel. Learn some common sense bubba.

...

Really? Seriously? 'Stop using big words'?

Plus, if you didn't understand some mapping terms or whatever that I used (I'm honestly not sure what's confusing you, because you haven't told me), I'm pretty okay with that because you're not one of the Stronghold developers, and I wasn't really talking to you.

Though I'd be happy to explain in clearer terms if you can pick anything out that you're curious about! (Though, based on what you've written here, it doesn't sound like you care anyway)

[skillsaw]

What could have said as criticism to Stronghold, should have been something like this: "I think this mod is pretty cool, it re-uses some texture and architecture a little bit, but overall, it's pretty damn good!" Short, concise and to the point! No argument, no drama.

Honestly, that's not what I look for when my work is being critiqued - I'd like a more complete assessment on any map that I've made. The more detailed the description of the problems the better I can address any problems.

As a (very minor) member of the Stronghold dev team, I would agree that it definitely fell far short of it's potential, however, writing the project off completely (as some have) is unfair as it does have it's moments and it does have a fair number of quality maps. The Invasion style of gameplay is a niche - if you don't like Invasion already, you may as well not even bother trying Stronghold, as it's really not made with your interests in mind to begin with.

[Xenaero]

I don't think "criticism" means what you think it means.

Shut the fuck up.

[ALMN]

Where da love at?

All i see is da hate

Can't we stop the hate?
That would really be great.
All i want, is a little love
Without havin to wear gloves

Please everybody let's get along
Stop actin like a bunch of dongs
This thread is full of lies
And it needs more of dem thighs

[Chorus]
Thighs! Oh dem thighs!
Those thighs are the things i stare at with my eyes!!!!!!
Thighs! Heyy ohh thighhhhhhhsssss
I love you...
...do you love me?
Thighs?

Some say I'm a sinner
Some say i'm a saint
If you say i'm a weiner
I'll shoot you in the taint

Dem thighs are made for rubbin
And that's just what they'll do
One of these days...dem thighs...
are gonna rub all over you

[Chorus]

THE END

[Edward-san]

Obviously, it'll get this year's cacoward. Won't it?

[OT]Please stop talking about how to criticise and how to not, PM that for yourself. I'm disappointed to see the last 4 pages full of (sort of)flame war.
Is it a backseat moderation?[/OT]

[Tormentor667]

so, no 1.1. We're going to ignore things that could be done to make the project look nicer? We're going to ignore the time attack issues that were pointed out? (no, seriously, having two minutes to kill monsters as pointed out by gez in the dw thread does not sound like a good thing)

That's not the point, but in terms of level design - as I already pointed out now for several times - the team is pleased and there is no need to change that. For the TimeAttack mode, sure, you could improve this, but honestly, up/downloading another 160 MB just for this little issue doesn't make much sense so I guess people have to live with that (even though this is only a problem for STR02).

That's fine of them. It won't do the project any good though, and well, depending on the ratio of those who like it to those who don't, it will probably go down in history as an failure.

What the fuck are you talking about? You consider Stronghold as a failure just because you don't like the problem with the Time Attack and just because you don't like the base themes? Fine, go with that, I can live with the fact that the majority actually did like Stronghold, that's okay for me

Even though crystalwolf was a bit crude, she might be right. Is this how you see Stronghold? Some thing you made, and no longer want to think about? It seems like you see criticism and feedback as a waste of time

Absolutely not, that's why we had 2 releasde candidates before the final release. There was enough time to pick up all the problems and bugs, but don't expect everything to be changed. We had a team of about 15 people incl. beta testers and that was actually the first opinion that counted. It's still "our" project, not a community effort. People have to live with some decisions, even though we always have been open for criticism.

Delete the file and pretend it never existed. That will probably be my solution to it. But I won't harass Tormentor and the other team members over it. It's very, very bad style and has already driven too many valuable contributors off the Doom community.

That's exactly the way to go for!

You're equating criticism with demands. We're allowed to post responses that aren't fellatio, just like you're allowed to delete the wad if you don't like it. To use your own words, think for a minute if every player stopped leaving negative feedback and criticism on new releases. How much improvement and progress would we see then?

Absolutely true, but there are people demanding a v1.1 or demanding that we actually execute their suggestions, and that won't happen as long as it is against our free creative decisions. I see no reason for a v1.1 just because some people do not like our decisions in terms of base design or consistency I mean, essel, you would never port your Vaporware stuff to Boom just because some people dislike advanced ports, would you?

I know you're speaking for Tormentor, but if what you said is accurate, my suspicions are correct and he doesn't care at all about the project anymore. What a shame.

Absolutely not true, but I - just as everyone else from the team - want to move on after 7 years of developing Stronghold. And as I already said: I am very pleased with how it turned out, so why continueing furthermore?

Nevermind, I'd be really happy if this flamewar just ends now, it's not necessary. Post your criticism, your feedback, we are eager to read that so we can improve on further upcoming projects. But don't demand a v1.1, we really want to move on now after 7 years of working on Stronghold. If you want to improve something, feel free to start working on your own addon for Stronghold, the script libraries are open source and you are free to create your own mod with that kinda stuff You can even change the original Stronghold by just releasing a patch with adjusted par times and stuff, it's all in the library and can be simply added

[Phucket]

Even though crystalwolf was a bit crude, she might be right.

---

Is this how you see Stronghold? Some thing you made, and no longer want to think about? It seems like you see criticism and feedback as a waste of time. I don't understand that at all. If I had reviews like you do, I'd be tracking down every one and trying to figure out why people felt that way. Their comments MIGHT make the game better, which makes reading them a good use of my time.

I gave up trying to give Tormentor advice on how to improve his maps a long time ago. As far as he's concerned, everything he shits out is pure gold. He has no interest in improving his maps and due to massive levels of unwarranted self importance, he's convinced that everything he makes is perfect.

also another spoiler: The whole 7 years of development thing? Complete bullshit.

[Tormentor667]

I gave up trying to give Tormentor advice on how to improve his maps a long time ago. As far as he's concerned, everything he shits out is pure gold. He has no interest in improving his maps and due to massive levels of unwarranted self importance, he's convinced that everything he makes is perfect.

You simply don't understand it, that's your problem. It isn't that I do not take advice, I always try to improve my maps and mods, that's what I did with UTNT, that's what we also did with Stronghold by having a large amount of betatesters, and by having 2 release candidates before the final 1.0, you can't really say that we or I shut down our minds when it comes to advice in terms of improvements.

What we are not doing, and that's what I will never do as well is changing things that I want to stay as they are in my mods just because some people don't like it. After all, Doom Mapping is some kind of art, it's an expression of our own individual ideas and creativity. I doubt that DaVinci would have drawn his Mona Lisa different just because some people didn't like the colors or the look of this women - even though I am not comparing myself to DaVinci It's just the idea behind this.

So, what we do is seperating suggestions and criticism in different categories: Changes that can be arranged with our image of the project, changes that simply can't and changes which are not necessary in our eyes. And I think there is nothing wrong with such an approach.

[Tormentor667]

also another spoiler: The whole 7 years of development thing? Complete bullshit.

Prove me wrong. I have one map and one script file on my system dated from March 2004 when I started with the whole concept, everyone who can count now is able to see that it's almost 7 years - as stated several times now!

[esselfortium]

also another spoiler: The whole 7 years of development thing? Complete bullshit.

Prove me wrong. I have one map and one script file on my system dated from March 2004 when I started with the whole concept, everyone who can count now is able to see that it's almost 7 years - as stated several times now!

Wasn't it on hiatus from 2005 until halfway through 2008?

[Phucket]

nonono you see essel the thing is that it DOES count as development time even if you're not working on it.

[gravitar]

The problem here seems to be that people use their intelligence not for exchange of opinion, which in itself is constructive, but for getting 'their' points across, which is egotistical and as such destructive.

Flamewar? By standards that I'm aware of the tone here is still very civilised. The person stating this disqualified themselves as overly pc, and/or clearly revealed their position. It doesn't help the Doom community is split in various camps, so the danger of overdoing loyalty and looking like an asskisser (atleast to outsiders) is always there.

It's all for the fun of mapping, the journey is the reward? Then why is EVERY one of Tormentor's projects always 'hyped' in such pompous ways? Someone in this thread said mappers releasing quality stuff for their own joy do so generally very humbly. One can always spot dishonesty by the discrepancy between what is said and what is done, more so on forums where it's black on white and always reviewable.
If someone needs to prove something for whatever reasons and pretends it's not the case, then sooner or later their own denial will become too big, and blatantly obvious to others. Ofcourse a lot of noise is made and smoke grenades are thrown in the process, and that results in more or less interesting drama.

I don't want to troll nor do I hold a grudge against anyone, just trying to articulate my thoughts here.

[Cutmanmike]

Split everything, yes everything, because I don't have time to look through pages and pages of whining. The topic is still there but we'll have to decide what to do with it later.

Edit: You know what, I don't trust people so I'll lock it too!

[gravitar]

^imo the tone was very civil, and you split it right after I posted. don't know if I should laugh or cry at the moment.

[Cutmanmike]

I'll let the other dudes decide what to do with it. Know that your post lived!