[Stronghold] Final version 1.0 out!

[Caligari87]

What exactly is stopping Tormentor from changing the lower textures around this border sector to STEP5? What exactly is preventing him from modifying the heights of a couple of sectors to avoid all those dumb unnatural cutoffs in the middle of the texture?

Effort.

Or maybe the fact that it's his and the team's map, and not yours?

[InsanityBringer]

if there is a chance to improve something, then why should you not?

[CrystalWolf]

Or maybe the fact that it's his and the team's map, and not yours?

If I make a map that is obviously trying to be visually appealing and failing to do so, I expect - demand - for you and the rest of ZDF to bitch and complain for miles until I do something about it and fix it.

Why you expect me to just accept that most of Stronghold looks like shit due to lack of competence/effort - despite it obviously trying to be visually appealing - and shut up about it, and simultaneously you and Graf tell me to stop "forcing my opinion on people" is beyond me.

[40oz]

Or maybe the fact that it's his and the team's map, and not yours?

I thought he was posting it up for download and making threads on every doom forum and making promotional pics because he wanted other people to play it?

[SoulCrow]

The big deal is that the entire reason we are having this discussion is basically because for too long the community has abided by this "don't play it if you don't like it" nonsense. If we don't play it because we don't like it, then the authors will continue to make shitty wads, and I care too much about Doom and its community to let people like you ruin this game for me.

How is one project made (out of the many that get released every year) suddenly going to "ruin" the game for you? Furthermore, why would anyone care if the game is "ruined" for you? The "don't play it if you don't like it" notion is effective because it really is that simple - if you don't like it, why don't you go away and play something that you do like? I think one figure I read once was that there are over 14,000 WADs for Doom and Doom II, and while most probably wouldn't suit your taste you can't tell me there aren't many, many others that you do enjoy playing (or would if you have not yet discovered them). I can't see how one project is suddenly going to change the entire community for the worse (in your opinion).

I'm not calling you out for simply criticising Stronghold, but your method of delivery. Take Esselfortium: he is a user who has similar problems with Stronghold but his method of explaining his problems is a lot more civilized than your often hostile posts. One of the guidelines that has recently been implemented in these forums is "Try to respect people's work (wads, scripts, graphics, audio) even if it's crap. Don't bash it without providing a reason first and keep it civilized (i.e. non-aggressive)". By all means criticise away but keep it civilized. Your incessant hostility is one of the big reasons why the "ripping games discussion" came to an end and you continue to post aggressively in other threads on these forums.

Finally, I don't need you standing up for the "community" against "shitty" WAD makers. As you have already understood in this thread, everyone has their own opinion, so trying to better the community by ridding it of WAD makers that you deem to be "shitty" just comes across as arrogant and ridiculous. Furthermore, as Graf Zahl has stated: "Tormentor probably doesn't care at all that you and esselfortium have issues with the map design. Lots of people like it and frankly I am tired to see how some people try to force their own design rules upon others."

[Xenaero]

I'm a cute little spider.

Except for the fact that most people who whine and complain about popular projects often balk if even a fraction of the same criticism hits their own works and thus the fabulous circle of drama that ZDoom is overwhelmingly consumed by because MY LINEDEFS ARE BETTER THAN YOURS NYAH NEENER NEENER.

[phi108]

That specific texturing example could have been considered and fixed before it was released (was it pointed out before?), but there is a point when you want to be done with a project and finalize it (I don't know if that's the case here).

In general, the thread's gone crazy since the big red text, Caligari and Crystalwolf should probably take a break before posting more (you just aren't furthering your causes)

[Jimmy]

if there is a chance to improve something, then why should you not?

But there is no longer a chance to improve something, because the mod's already released officially. People whining about how the levels still suck (at least by their own standards) are just wasting their energy. In fact, a lot of us still posting in this thread are doing just that. I'm definitely not going to go near this thread, or possibly the project as a whole, ever again, because I spent quite a long time (two or three years) on the quality control team, working my arse off for the good of this project, and frankly I'm appalled at the infantile community-wide reaction the release has triggered. I can't help thinking sometimes that we worked as hard as we did on this project for all but nought. You know what? It's basically the whole Evilution business all over again, except everything's just been blown totally out of proportion.

On top of that, I wonder how much time has been spent playing the mod, compared with the time spent ranting and raving about whether or not the project is good. I mean, seriously.

In closing, I'm going to humbly suggest that you all clam up and play something you can enjoy. Whether or not that's Stronghold in your case I don't actually give a flying fuck. There are still what can be unquestionably be called "quality" mods out there, and Stronghold's release makes little, if any at all, impact on the general standards of the ZDoom or non-ZDoom communities. It's a mod. For Doom. That is it.

stuff

[InsanityBringer]

if there is a chance to improve something, then why should you not?

But there is no longer a chance to improve something, because the mod's already released officially.

It didn't stop kdizd from starting 1.1. It never was released, but it was started and had work done.

Also, version 1.1. There is nothing wrong with Version 1.1. Or 1.2. Or 1.3. It happens all the time. Rough edges should get fixed up after release. And most people do so. So... there's really no reason not to fix things up.

edit can't type

[40oz]

How is one project made (out of the many that get released every year) suddenly going to "ruin" the game for you? Furthermore, why would anyone care if the game is "ruined" for you? The "don't play it if you don't like it" notion is effective because it really is that simple - if you don't like it, why don't you go away and play something that you do like?

I think it has a lot to do with that if its unreasonably excused problems are left unquestioned, then people will continue to turn towards a project like this as an example for inspiration on how to make something that is good when people who do love doom and not just the bells and whistles that are attached to it are left in the dust, unable to play things that are new and really are good because everyone else thinks that this is the best there is. That's my reasoning, anyway.

[esselfortium]

if there is a chance to improve something, then why should you not?

But there is no longer a chance to improve something, because the mod's already released officially. People whining about how the levels still suck (at least by their own standards) are just wasting their energy. In fact, a lot of us still posting in this thread are doing just that.

Uh. In which particular universe does anything work like that? I'm pretty sure criticizing Star Wars: Episode I is still allowed despite George Lucas not working on it anymore (until whatever cash-in remake in however many more years).

It's not going to hurt Stronghold's feelings if we tell it we don't like it. It's okay to say these things. Critical responses can either be ignored, worked on for a later Stronghold release (unlikely and not at all expected), or taken into consideration for the authors' other projects in the future, of which there are many. But the important thing here is that the validity of someone's viewpoint about a work is not dependent on the authors' capacity to give a shit about it.

On top of that, I wonder how much time has been spent playing the mod, compared with the time spent ranting and raving about whether or not the project is good. I mean, seriously.

That would probably be a pretty good metric of whether it's actually any good or not, come to think of it.

[Xenaero]

I think that if people actually played projects instead of basically using every fiber in their corporal existence to denounce and point out every obvious flaw in a project because it's apparently become cool to bash authors of anything remotely popular (depending of course on which part of the Doom Community you hail from) then there would be a lot less pointless 'discussion' (Look at you all) and more to go around.

It would be interesting to reverse the roles and have the loudest people in this thread make a project of equal scale and popularity and see how many imperfections get pointed out and exacerbated by the type of people I mentioned earlier, when it's not really a big deal at all hey.

[Caligari87]

On top of that, I wonder how much time has been spent playing the mod, compared with the time spent ranting and raving about whether or not the project is good. I mean, seriously.

That would probably be a pretty good metric of whether it's actually any good or not, come to think of it.

Hence the "if you don't like it don't play it" argument comes full circle. *tired laugh*

In general, the thread's gone crazy since the big red text, Caligari and Crystalwolf should probably take a break before posting more (you just aren't furthering your causes)

The point made still stands, but I do apologize for the trollishness of my my earlier outburst; maybe I should stop posting on Thursdays due to my tendency to be up late the night before.

[Spleen]

It would be interesting to reverse the roles and have the loudest people in this thread make a project of equal scale and popularity and see how many imperfections get pointed out and exacerbated by the type of people I mentioned earlier, when it's not really a big deal at all hey.

There was, it was called spacedm5. And critics were publicly ridiculed, with spacedm5 blindly hailed as the best thing ever.

[esselfortium]

I think that if people actually played projects instead of basically using every fiber in their corporal existence to denounce and point out every obvious flaw in a project because it's apparently become cool to bash authors of anything remotely popular (depending of course on which part of the Doom Community you hail from) then there would be a lot less pointless 'discussion' (Look at you all) and more to go around.

Er...how exactly does one post criticism about a wad without having "actually played" it first? I've seen quite a bit from people who've played it here and elsewhere, and not just in regard to the couple of design issues I've brought up. What types of discussion are allowed?

see how many imperfections get pointed out and exacerbated by the type of people I mentioned earlier, when it's not really a big deal at all hey.

Different people have different opinions about things? No way

It would be interesting to reverse the roles and have the loudest people in this thread make a project of equal scale and popularity and see how many imperfections get pointed out and exacerbated by the type of people I mentioned earlier, when it's not really a big deal at all hey.

There was, it was called spacedm5. And critics were publicly ridiculed, with spacedm5 blindly hailed as the best thing ever.

You do realize at least half of Spacedm5 was a jokewad, and that its delivery (particularly early on) was a pretty direct parody of overblown project announcements. Plus...hell, even look at the accompanying .txt of the release version. A lot of the maplist is me apologizing for making whatever shitty level in 2007