So I've spent time in Easy FPS Editor. It's a fine little editor but I'm concerned it will ultimately hold me back in a few ways. Just having an elevator platform alone would be nice. So I thought maybe I should look into GZDoom.Solitaired
I was hoping to find some sort of "getting started in GZDoom development " documentation. Does this exist? Some kind of beginning to end... from install to working rooms/level.
Does an ultimate guide exist or am I piecing together info from here and there? That's what I'm currently doing, not very well.
I'm confused as to exactly what it is. If I understand correctly it's a doom editor that you can modify with your own assets.
Thanks so much.
Want to try out GZDoom?
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Before asking on how to use a ZDoom feature, read the ZDoom wiki first. If you still don't understand how to use a feature, then ask here.
Before asking on how to use a ZDoom feature, read the ZDoom wiki first. If you still don't understand how to use a feature, then ask here.
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NorrisHermiston
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Ihavequestions
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Re: Want to try out GZDoom?
Going straight into GZDoom mapping can be a bit overwhelming as it offers a huge amount of features.
I would suggest to start with classic Doom mapping first, then switch over to GZDoom mapping once you've sufficiently mastered classic Doom mapping.
Your tool of choice would be Ultimate Doom Builder. That's what everyone uses.
I would suggest to start with classic Doom mapping first, then switch over to GZDoom mapping once you've sufficiently mastered classic Doom mapping.
Your tool of choice would be Ultimate Doom Builder. That's what everyone uses.
Re: Want to try out GZDoom?
Just personal opinion, of course, but I have always argued against the "start with Doom format mapping" advice (going back to before UDMF was even an option). Yes, the map format is simpler, but I really don't believe that the additional options of the modern map formats are particularly difficult. In fact, removal of some of the restrictions actually simplifies things. Ultimate Doom Builder describes all the features in a way that seems reasonably straight forward, presents them well enough and groups them together in ways that makes sense. In fact, UDB's interface is one of the best for any game editor that I have come across, not just Doom. So, sure, full GZDoom/UDMF format does present you with a lot more options in the dialogues, but very few of those options are particularly complicated IMO. In short, I don't believe that a more restricted, set of options actually makes for an easier learning curve - especially as a lot of the restrictions of classic mode don't make much sense unless you know why they are there in the first place.
Classic is actually quite weird at times, with conventions and restrictions that made sense in 1993 but not now. Things like line actions being tied to activation types is something which probably made sense in as much as the combinations were what was needed at the time, but there's not much logic beyond that, or not being able to align floor textures (or even use textures on floors of you go back as far as the textures on walls, flats on floors restrictions). Scale a texture to fit a wall? Not in classic mode! (But it's just a simple keystroke in UDMF mode.) People who have seen certain things happen in maps that they have played might end up scratching their heads trying to figure out why they can't do something similar in classic mode, not realising that the restrictions of that mode make what they want to do impossible. You also very quickly have to get into tricks and hacks to force the game to do something if you want to do even relatively simple things that the classic format couldn't do - e.g. two actions with a single flip of a switch, a pool of deep water, a door with transparent bits... Rather than relying on shonky hacks, surely it's much better to use a feature that was specifically designed to do what you want? I also feel that if you learn classic mode, you have to unlearn some features when you eventually transfer to the more advanced map formats.
The advice to start with classic is also one that many other game communities can't even give. The only reason that advice can be given for Doom is because Doom had it's original mode in 1993 and this had been modified, augmented and upgraded several times in the last three decades. With other games that haven't been around for as long, people don't suggest starting out in classic mode, because there isn't a newer mode to make the original one "classic". Yet, people still manage to edit and make mods for pretty much every game that exists - even when the process is far more complicated than Doom editing. Even if you do consider mapping in a newer map format complicated, it is often far, far less complicated than editing modern multi-gigbyte games. Yet people still manage to edit those modern games.
"Purists" often argue that editing in classic mode means you will learn good game balance, monster placement etc. without getting distracted by modern features. I've seen great maps in classic mode, terrible maps in classic mode, great maps in modern modes, and terrible maps in modern modes - all created by new mappers. I think that particular view stems from "purists" disliking non-classic features and railing against them whenever they see them. Even better if the map isn't that good - obviously it's the modern map features that are the problem. "If you hadn't wasted your time making a 3D floor, your ammo placement would have been so much better."
I feel really sorry for people who edit games that don't have a classic mode. They are obviously doomed (ahem) to never learn how to have good gameplay in their mods. 
IMO, the only reason to edit in classic mode is because you want to edit in classic mode: you may want the limitations as a challenge for your creativity; or you are aiming your mod at a particular engine; or whatever personal choice reason you have. It's all valid, but if the advice is intended to make starting with Doom editing easier, I personally don't agree. "Learn a limited format, with arcane conventions, that might not do everything that you want, that may force you to make some hacky features, and which will still leave you with a learning curve when you move on to a newer map format" is how the advice always sounds to me.
Ultimately, game editing is a complex task. Doom is one of the simpler games to edit, but there are always going to be many things to consider. So, learning how to do it and becoming used to the tools is always going to have something of a learning curve. I'm not convinced that learning classic mode, and then moving on to an extended map format really helps much - and it could even hinder things.
Just my £0.02
But, yes, certainly, grab Ultimate Doom Builder, fire it up, doodle with the drawing tools, try to get something that can run - even if it's just a room or two - in whatever mapping mode you choose to go with. Look at what other people have done, pick their maps apart to figure out how they did it and try similar things for yourself, ask for help when you are stuck and, most importantly, have fun.
Classic is actually quite weird at times, with conventions and restrictions that made sense in 1993 but not now. Things like line actions being tied to activation types is something which probably made sense in as much as the combinations were what was needed at the time, but there's not much logic beyond that, or not being able to align floor textures (or even use textures on floors of you go back as far as the textures on walls, flats on floors restrictions). Scale a texture to fit a wall? Not in classic mode! (But it's just a simple keystroke in UDMF mode.) People who have seen certain things happen in maps that they have played might end up scratching their heads trying to figure out why they can't do something similar in classic mode, not realising that the restrictions of that mode make what they want to do impossible. You also very quickly have to get into tricks and hacks to force the game to do something if you want to do even relatively simple things that the classic format couldn't do - e.g. two actions with a single flip of a switch, a pool of deep water, a door with transparent bits... Rather than relying on shonky hacks, surely it's much better to use a feature that was specifically designed to do what you want? I also feel that if you learn classic mode, you have to unlearn some features when you eventually transfer to the more advanced map formats.
The advice to start with classic is also one that many other game communities can't even give. The only reason that advice can be given for Doom is because Doom had it's original mode in 1993 and this had been modified, augmented and upgraded several times in the last three decades. With other games that haven't been around for as long, people don't suggest starting out in classic mode, because there isn't a newer mode to make the original one "classic". Yet, people still manage to edit and make mods for pretty much every game that exists - even when the process is far more complicated than Doom editing. Even if you do consider mapping in a newer map format complicated, it is often far, far less complicated than editing modern multi-gigbyte games. Yet people still manage to edit those modern games.
"Purists" often argue that editing in classic mode means you will learn good game balance, monster placement etc. without getting distracted by modern features. I've seen great maps in classic mode, terrible maps in classic mode, great maps in modern modes, and terrible maps in modern modes - all created by new mappers. I think that particular view stems from "purists" disliking non-classic features and railing against them whenever they see them. Even better if the map isn't that good - obviously it's the modern map features that are the problem. "If you hadn't wasted your time making a 3D floor, your ammo placement would have been so much better."
I feel really sorry for people who edit games that don't have a classic mode. They are obviously doomed (ahem) to never learn how to have good gameplay in their mods. IMO, the only reason to edit in classic mode is because you want to edit in classic mode: you may want the limitations as a challenge for your creativity; or you are aiming your mod at a particular engine; or whatever personal choice reason you have. It's all valid, but if the advice is intended to make starting with Doom editing easier, I personally don't agree. "Learn a limited format, with arcane conventions, that might not do everything that you want, that may force you to make some hacky features, and which will still leave you with a learning curve when you move on to a newer map format" is how the advice always sounds to me.
Ultimately, game editing is a complex task. Doom is one of the simpler games to edit, but there are always going to be many things to consider. So, learning how to do it and becoming used to the tools is always going to have something of a learning curve. I'm not convinced that learning classic mode, and then moving on to an extended map format really helps much - and it could even hinder things.
Just my £0.02
But, yes, certainly, grab Ultimate Doom Builder, fire it up, doodle with the drawing tools, try to get something that can run - even if it's just a room or two - in whatever mapping mode you choose to go with. Look at what other people have done, pick their maps apart to figure out how they did it and try similar things for yourself, ask for help when you are stuck and, most importantly, have fun.
Re: Want to try out GZDoom?
Once I got the idea to make maps in the style of assaul cube for the advanced Doom engine and did it for k8vavoom. I took a 2D image of the map as a basis and converted it using png2wad to boom format. Then I converted it to udmf, did stupid things, before I realized that I knew nothing. Then I converted it back to boom, also with the goal of making the map load in doom legacy. However, I quickly realized that many things are not available in boom format, although editing is indeed easier and the Eureka editor is very good at this. As a result, I am now finishing this map in UDB for Zandronum (since all AC maps are multiplayer). It was a long road, but it allows you to look at creating levels from the perspective of different engines and formats. I think it was useful.
Re: Want to try out GZDoom?
We are possibly making things sound a lot more complicated than they are. So, I just threw this together: a two room playable map made in under 90 seconds.
Obviously, the map is ugly and minimal, and I'd never want to release a map without some more finesse (e.g. door alcoves, door stops, better lighting etc.), but I hope it gets across that, at it's simplest level, getting something that runs in Doom can be very straight forward.
I could have probably done it even quicker by using a few more keystrokes etc, but that wasn't the point of the video. The relative simplicity of the task, not the speed, was the point.
Also note that this was done in the advanced UDMF format, demonstrating that even though the map format gives you more options, it doesn't have to mean that the task of putting a map together has to be difficult.
Obviously, the map is ugly and minimal, and I'd never want to release a map without some more finesse (e.g. door alcoves, door stops, better lighting etc.), but I hope it gets across that, at it's simplest level, getting something that runs in Doom can be very straight forward.
I could have probably done it even quicker by using a few more keystrokes etc, but that wasn't the point of the video. The relative simplicity of the task, not the speed, was the point.
Also note that this was done in the advanced UDMF format, demonstrating that even though the map format gives you more options, it doesn't have to mean that the task of putting a map together has to be difficult.