Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

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VR49
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Post by VR49 »

I agree, some of the SC monsters are quite silly but Maulotaur did a great job making them work, I did some more tweaking on their attack behavior myself to make them more challenging for their style of behavior, but of course, as you said, the work you and your contributors did for the monster variety and upgrades (as shown in your youtube videos) are the best way to go, the most appropriate. Let me run out of my SC nostalgia and I'll swap em back out for the mainstay Bitter Heretic experience!

Yes this is def much more harder and exhilarating, I've already had the opportunity to play with this kind of approach when the Darkdoomz Black is active, throwing the torch down and fighting within the area (nice idea also to do some damage by throwing the torch!), but I thought it was a brilliant idea on your behalf to invent a lighting mechanic for the wand when at optimal ammo and would be a shame to lose that feature. Perhaps a way to lower the amount of light it gives while keeping the feature, so it can't outdo the torch? Again, what you've accomplished with mixing up various options for each Heretic and Hexen weapon is worthy of a Patreon support page!

Thank you for the staff comments! That was my way of countering how effective the light was versus having another melee weapon and optimizing blunt damage with the random(min-max) function. After NY'24, I wanted to figure out how to make melee weapons do more damage from backstabs and to make melee weapons basically silent unless they hit a wall or cause a parry, then it makes noise to a certain degree, alerting nearby enemies. I've come at a time where GZDoom and ZScript got updates and added some new variables to mess with, but I think what you've done and how you've utilized ZScript and DECORATE so far has been excellent and I've applied some of your work to SC monsters so their front attacks aren't so easy to dodge by slightly moving backwards.

PS: Breaking barrels is also another genius mechanic (amazing work on your behalf, and you even created mechanics for them when induced by fire!), with the rats helping out if you get a swarm from one of them. I absolutely love it. Sometimes the rats accidentally attack you while trying to go for the enemy, if you're in the way and I found that quite to my liking. Considering they're rats, I'd love to figure out a way in implementing them to attack you if you display violence (on purpose or by accident) towards them as well as using the torch to scare them away into the opposite direction, which would force them into portals so they can weaken or kill nearby enemies at the other end of the portal so you don't spawn into as deadly a trap as you would have without the help from the rats.

I should note that all of my testing and brainstorming implementations were via OBLIGE randomization maps. That's the experience I'm pulling from, I like how OBLIGE randomizes the maps, it's more nostalgic and simpler to me then the community-upgraded one on GitHub that you mentioned and I like the maps randomized and unfair (I'm a long-time Warhammer Vermintide 2 player, everything in there is masochistic lol), hence why I want (maybe even need) silent mechanics for appropriate weapons. Def not for everyone, so there def should be separate types of builds, as it's important for those playing the classic Heretic maps to enjoy Bitter Heretic's intended experience!

I've already made almost all of your melee weapons temporarily silent (they're globally silent, which means for each type of attack they do, which is way too silent, a temporary position until I have time to break down their various abilities and what should be silent and what should generate noise) just didn't yet put in parry and wall-hit monster alerts to test how the gameplay balance will feel on that. The crossbow when it's not powered by green magic (brilliant, again and I love the reload animation and the focus required for it, it's as realistic as can get for a Doom engine game) I feel could also go for silent kills, unless you miss and the arrow hits the wall so I'll also be trying to do something with that (but leave the sound alert for monsters when shooting with green/magic arrows).

You got my mind racing with ideas as your genius mod is absolutely inspiring. If it was a Steam game I would have already bought it!

Happy New Year! :D
Last edited by VR49 on Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Lagi
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Post by Lagi »

I would be happy to add some of the SC monsters, but they need tons of work with sprites, that im not willing to put anymore.

I think lighting goldwand is feature bloat. Gold wand have already tons of functions. I doubt any players are even aware/care.
Light function require really adding new button to operate it, or cut some of other function - like block. Which is uncomparable more needed all the time. Accidentaly lighting up goldwand, instead blocking is annoying.

As i know from some older gameplay videos - players dont even use R reload key (90% of people that use any software dont bother posting about it. This was a big problem for RTS genre, as devs overestimate importance of multiplayer, which lead to the genre exctinction. Funny enough because AoEmpiers 2 recieved countels updates, DLCs and even have pro scene now - thanks to casuals that play single campagin, not basement nerd that jerk off to APM).

I think Staff with low damage work better. Make other weapons more valuable. That was good idea.

Backstabs? there is mod for that. Unnaware monster take damage multiplicator - its inside each monster code in Bitter Heretic.

I was thinking about stealth mechanics. But my hype was gone, and i dont want to learn zscript anymore.

barrel mechanic is lacking throwing, as someone posted in the past. Again, i need to steal someones code :-).

Rat being scare by fire is exceleent idea! Some of the monster could be too.... Wendigo?

Oblige is great... however the Heretic maps could use some more props (yes even with Heathen Maze is not perfect yet).

Vermitaide is great, i played it in the past, not sure which one 1 or 2. Lots of the melee combat mechanics are great there.

Nah... silent stealth mechanic is a great addition. You would need to reset monster back to idle state somehow, when player hide in shadow or some bushses. Have no clue how to do that.

Wait... the old non magical crossbow is still available in bitter?! It is quite a crapp weapon, and i switch it to ethernal only (or double ethernal if you find 2nd copy).

Thanks. There are lots of better mods and maps that mine, I recieve lots of code help here, and if anything then ZDOOM team need some conpensation, not me for making my dream heretic come true.

If I ever make steam game, it will be Aethra Chronicles remake. :-)
VR49
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Post by VR49 »

Don't worry about the SC sprites, I'm just having fun with it for a while then I'm coming back for the mainstay Bitter Heretic experience you've crafted.

It's hard for me to imagine the crystal not being shiny and showing off light at this point you've opened my eyes (pun intended) and it's hard to close them now! I don't think it's bloat and you can change to staff mode for all the staff needs and parries with my edits, while still keeping the light, so it works out for now tho I do agree, accidentally lighting up the wind is a problem, especially for those who don't know how it's now designed to work, if you've gotten used to the prior control scheme, yep yep you're right...

[quote="Lagi"]As i know from some older gameplay videos - players dont even use R reload key (90% of people that use any software dont bother posting about it. This was a big problem for RTS genre, as devs overestimate importance of multiplayer, which lead to the genre exctinction. Funny enough because AoEmpiers 2 recieved countels updates, DLCs and even have pro scene now - thanks to casuals that play single campagin, not basement nerd that jerk off to APM).[/quote]
I don't know what this is referring to, kind of lost track, am trying to figure out if GZDoom uses BBcode so I can apply it since I'm new here.

Regarding backstabbing, yes I've noticed that, a bit later I might add, as it took me a while to verify if the other changes were working or not. There's features in your mod I haven't witnessed yet and features I'm not sure are real until I've isolated them in a more controlled OBLIGE environment. Week ago I finally had the opportunity, with all the extreme silent code I added, to figure out that indeed, the backstab damage code exists and is working. It's good the backstab code is there for the damage, now I just gotta insure there are conditions for when stuff is silent, when it shouldn't be, what's the audio range, what's appropriate for being silent or not, how balanced it is versus how realistic...Let me get on that with ZScript, gimme time. Once I have something solid going I'll send it over here and document it. I know Project Brutality is open source on GitHub I can def isolate the barrel throwing code from there as well as the silent code, then figure out who I need to credit for it and let them know as well. Setting up the monsters to be idle again after a while I wonder if that's possible too, considering they def do that when they've killed you in Project Brutality. PB has so many cool features that it destroys multiplayer options but there are multiplayer options in GZDoom so I assume updating them for GZScript for the "multiplayer-friendly" ones or compatible ones (since ZScript has depreciated, semi-depreciated and currently used versions of their commands and functions).

The Wendigo bit, I wouldn't know the lore. GPT says "no, it would not be scared of rats" lol.

Plz leave the plain crossbow alone it's so badass and I wanna make it silent. It's cool how there is a powerup feature to make it the classic Heretic bow, I thought it was supposed to be in there as a way to have a mechanic to powerup the bow so it shots AND I think those green magic arrows pierce enemies and go through them to damage more enemies, please leave all of those goodies to stay in there, it's great stuff, I want to make that one silent and the powered up one non-silent since it does pierce and possibly more damage (didn't check).

[quote="Lagi"]Thanks. There are lots of better mods and maps that mine, I recieve lots of code help here, and if anything then ZDOOM team need some conpensation, not me for making my dream heretic come true.[/quote]
Sure, but Heretic-wise, this is, like I said, the go-to for me now. I don't even hafta switch between Heretic and Hexen anymore, I can just play Bitter Heretic for the "best-of-both-worlds" experience.

[quote="Lagi"]If I ever make steam game, it will be Aethra Chronicles remake. :-)[/quote]
Never played, how's it?
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Post by Lagi »

Spoiler: all options for gold wand use
only option to squeeze in lighting up wand crystal :
IF crystal on wand is full : do NOT-reload when you press R key instead either LIght up crystal OR Block

From my point of view, the lighting up of goldwand is pointless. It only have sense if you using dark mode, and even then being able to block is incomparably more useful.
More over when starting with 1 torch, fight in darkness is fun (throwing torch on ground).

I could add 4th control button or make some combination of keys OR do some procedure of things for player to do (like your code).
Or i can just face the reality thats a feature bloat and get rid of it.

====================================================

Backstabb

i was talking about this mod:
viewtopic.php?t=68078

in bitter monster take more damage if he is in idle state

===================================================

Wendigo should be afraid of fire (not rats :-) or maybe too?)

===================================================

I need to check the mundane crossbow. I find it to be useless. i have no clue how you access it, with RAMBO cheat code?

===================================================

Aethra Chronicles
Spoiler:
===================================================
EDIT:
BUGS:

TRIDENT player projectiles have no dynamic lights

goldwand is not light up during shot (minor estethic annoyence)

hammer on Reload cannot be cancelled just to light hammer up a bit (like primary fire) - maybe its not need? this prevent need to hold R key to launch fire ring.

i also nerf sword again, and touch up xbow lights

mundane crossbow is obtain by:
1. getting ethernal crossbow
2. touching any ghost monster

this is some old code, i have funny idea few years ago. Lots of people complain that its annoying to downgrade green crossbow this way.

I think the idea was, if you dont pistol start, finding crossbow on next levels should be enjoyable .... im not sure now if its a feature or a bug
[I am keeping it as it is, waiting for my mass of fans to organise plebiscite. A world wide referendum}

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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Post by otavaoe »

I think the "downgraded "crossbow is much more interesting from a mechanical point of view and more in line with the rest of the weapons in terms of animations and complexity, unlike the green one, which is as if left over from the vanilla Heretic
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Post by combolynch »

Lagi wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:34 am Made is now pick up weapons. You can either find gauntlets of necromancer or mace, it's randomize.

Mace is too strong as starting weapon.
I understand. I start with axe usually. It's less powerful than mace, faster a bit. I think it would better than mace as a starting weapon. I can make my player start with axe by fiddling with slade but when I use wand start mode, it still starts with just the wand again. I couldn't make my player start with axe.

My little idea for starting is:
the axe and gold wand are starting weapons
not able to throw axe when you have 1 axe so the player can't throw it accidently.

Sorry about my issue with wand start but it seems better for a warrior or assassin not just take a stick with him/her to go on a monster slaying quest. He/She needs a blade too :D
And sorry for my very late reply too :D :D
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Post by Lagi »

combolynch wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 11:37 am
Lagi wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:34 am Made is now pick up weapons. You can either find gauntlets of necromancer or mace, it's randomize.

Mace is too strong as starting weapon.
I understand. I start with axe usually. It's less powerful than mace, faster a bit. I think it would better than mace as a starting weapon. I can make my player start with axe by fiddling with slade but when I use wand start mode, it still starts with just the wand again. I couldn't make my player start with axe.

My little idea for starting is:
the axe and gold wand are starting weapons
not able to throw axe when you have 1 axe so the player can't throw it accidently.

Sorry about my issue with wand start but it seems better for a warrior or assassin not just take a stick with him/her to go on a monster slaying quest. He/She needs a blade too :D
And sorry for my very late reply too :D :D
axe is both range and melee weapon... so it need to be weaker than mace. And yes axe is faster, and with Krater of Power the DPS is much better than Mace.

starting weapon is wimpy (as called in the code), and if you think about it it should be Elven/Gold Wand (its even on the character sprite or main menu picture). Its quite standard in Doom-esque games to start with poor weapon to enjoy finding better. Besides there is plenty of axes from death knights - its common like shotgun drop by Sergeants ni Doom.

Bitter Heretic has a ACS script that is clearing inventory at the start of each level if Wand Start option is ON. You will need to change ACS script, recompile it. Just changing Decorate code is not enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heretic_(video_game)
Corvus is make like so, he is not classic warrior or assasin.

there is plenty of blades available immediatly on each level wheher its episode or Oblivion map. I dont understand why you insist so much that first 30 second of gameplay need to give you starting Axe. Even if you play Easy 1st Episdoe, the Undead Warrior is in the end of first level.
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Post by combolynch »

Lagi wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 12:21 am
combolynch wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 11:37 am
Lagi wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:34 am Made is now pick up weapons. You can either find gauntlets of necromancer or mace, it's randomize.

Mace is too strong as starting weapon.
I understand. I start with axe usually. It's less powerful than mace, faster a bit. I think it would better than mace as a starting weapon. I can make my player start with axe by fiddling with slade but when I use wand start mode, it still starts with just the wand again. I couldn't make my player start with axe.

My little idea for starting is:
the axe and gold wand are starting weapons
not able to throw axe when you have 1 axe so the player can't throw it accidently.

Sorry about my issue with wand start but it seems better for a warrior or assassin not just take a stick with him/her to go on a monster slaying quest. He/She needs a blade too :D
And sorry for my very late reply too :D :D
axe is both range and melee weapon... so it need to be weaker than mace. And yes axe is faster, and with Krater of Power the DPS is much better than Mace.

starting weapon is wimpy (as called in the code), and if you think about it it should be Elven/Gold Wand (its even on the character sprite or main menu picture). Its quite standard in Doom-esque games to start with poor weapon to enjoy finding better. Besides there is plenty of axes from death knights - its common like shotgun drop by Sergeants ni Doom.

Bitter Heretic has a ACS script that is clearing inventory at the start of each level if Wand Start option is ON. You will need to change ACS script, recompile it. Just changing Decorate code is not enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heretic_(video_game)
Corvus is make like so, he is not classic warrior or assasin.

there is plenty of blades available immediatly on each level wheher its episode or Oblivion map. I dont understand why you insist so much that first 30 second of gameplay need to give you starting Axe. Even if you play Easy 1st Episdoe, the Undead Warrior is in the end of first level.
Actually, you are right, it really gets boring after some time when you start with mace. Sorry about that if I've been disrespectful, it's just when I love something so much, I can sometimes keep talking about it like a psycho. Keep up the good work :rock: :thumb:
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Post by Lagi »

no worries, You were not at all! Thank you for your remarks.
its always good when someone comment on your work. Whether you agree with it or not.

I consider bitter heretic to be complete mod. At the start, i want to only add mace and shield to vanilla heretic. But i go with the punches as i achieve next goal posts.

I wanted to add monsters knocking down and flying back from explosion or powerful strike. But its massive amount of works with sprites that i think im no longer willing to do.
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Post by VR49 »

Lagi the new Hexen+Heretic in a KAX wrapper with 16 co-op crossplat support indicates there may be a possibility to get your mod running in fully working multiplayer co-op. It features in-game upload system that checks map compatibility and shares with community so players online can just download from the in-game mod list and play with anyone.

The thing even has split-screen + online player support like Serious Sam 1....

https://mtrop.github.io/DoomTools/

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app ... 9128694204

EDIT: Oof yea you guys are right I was terribly wrong. It's wildly incompatible, doesn't allow new classes or scripting to occur at all. You can modify weapon damage that's about it, with KEX-engine stuff. Damn! I refunded it :[
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Post by Lagi »

thanks for info.

I dont fully understand this remake.
I notice that hexen cleric has shield that has active block.
Is there any other changes?

AFAIR Bitter heretic would not be Multiplayer compatible because lots of code refere to player as actor with index 0 etc.

I see no point investing my time to remake Bitter again.

If 2nd covid lock down happen, i would and knock back animation to monsters.
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Post by kalensar »

Theres no chance for the new Heretic Remaster for supporting Bitter Heretic unless the entire thing is rewritten in MBF21. KEX is not a GZDoom supported engine. GZDoom supports MBF21, but KEX does not support Decorate or ZScript.
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Post by Lagi »

THIS IS CONCEPT POST

type of damage:
  • sharp - deal more dmg to non armored monsters
  • blunt - knock back, stun
  • fire - burn death, big monster may survive burn death
  • ice
  • magic(energy) - plasma kind of death, that melt target
monsters flags:
  • armored - take less damage from sharp weapons
  • ghost - sharp and blunt weapons/projectile pass him.
Weapons list:
  • fists [blunt] - run faster, can pickup barrel or plant pod, can climb, can steal monster item. Damage to be balance so its better to punch armored monster than hack him with axe or sword.
  • gold wand - magic (blunt) - you need to find it on level (not starting weapon)
  • Mace - blunt - no more NecroGauntlets
  • Axe -sharp
  • Torch-Fire-damage only good vs fire susceptible monsters
  • Shield - blunt
  • Hammer - blunt, fire
  • Book of entropy- ice
  • Sword - sharp
  • trident-sharp/magic
  • crossbow - sharp - mundane xbow and mundane double xbow, require long manual reload
Armor on player:
If player find heavy armor (plate or hauberk) he gain armored flag.
Hands that hold weapons are change to armored gauntlets from Necromancer gauntlets.
Player take less damage. But move slightly slower. Player take more damage from Ice attacks.

In general, Armor are new HP. HP are rather hard to get back. Food and bandage regenerate few points over time.
shield, helmet, 3x armor sets increase Armor - which is second set of HP. Points are depleted 2:1 Armor:Health (or more 3:1 or 4:1... need test).

Armored monsters take less dmg from axe,sword, trident and xbow.

Knockback animation for all monsters
if there is explosion, or player smack monster real hard - monster fly back and laid on ground. Stand up after while.

punch, staff, mace, shield, hammer - will knock back (and defacto stun) targets. Need test, if it looks off: only hammer.

Wound states:
Legionnaire - without shield. Player can punch Legionnaire to steal his shield. Or it just break from hard attack.

Projectile deaths:
if you kill mob with xbow, belt stick in his belly when he agonize - strife.
if you throw axe, its display on death animation.
if you throw trident its death animation with fork in someones chest.

Tome of Power weapon version:
mostly to utility the knock back. It not so insanely overpower like in vanilla heretic. Maybe a static on map pick up that auto trigger? Or some on/off mechanics. There is this pickup from hexen Chalice of Power -instead granting speed would alter weapons. Static pick would allow to use it in map specific positions - like in Wayfarer.

Tommed fists - looks like necro gauntlets and come with energy struck attack. or player can push with punch monster around room.
wand ? staff is like tommed staff from heretic
Mace ? ArcaneMod has this holy version.
axe - like in hexen
hammer - fire version ...
book - no boost?
sword - some flames like hexen quintus.
trident ?
Tommed xbow is ethereal

===========================
EDIT:
1. fists, staff and shield bash dont kill. They just stun, knockdown (for longer time) or push. but all monster can take infinite amount of beating and will keep standing up. OR they would only start taking damage when bash while knockdown.
2. torch - will not be able to hurt, non fire susceptible monsters. basically vs ghost - wimpy weapon that stun, knockdown or push away.
3. crossbow spawn point => first is gold wand, 2nd xbow pick up = crossbow (mundane), 3rd = ethernal xbow, 4rth = double ethernal xbow.




no torch at start
gauntlet spawn -> sword
xbow -> gold wand

bolt->crystal or ...?
quiver ->crystal

crystal ?
Big crystal ?
Last edited by Lagi on Mon Aug 25, 2025 6:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bitter Heretic: Melee combat emphasise

Post by Lagi »

UPLOADED:
weapon wheel is fixed
3x new monsters from Remake are replaced on new maps.
new weapon is not.

Armor is taking more damage. Need to spawn more chainmails from legionaires

Red key is now called Ruby. (as per youtuber feedback)
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