[Clearly not] Removal of +FLATSPRITE and +WALLSPRITE

Moderator: GZDoom Developers

Removal of +FLATSPRITE and +WALLSPRITE

Postby Kinsie » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:20 pm

Let's be blunt here. These features are doomed. They have a number of issues with sorting etc., but the engine developers and some associated modders are not only intent on not even considering fixes or improvements to the feature, but actively deride people for using it instead of the gross, less-flexible, literally-copy-pasted-from-Brutal-Doom workaround of defining a flat 3D model in GLDEFs. As a result, it would probably be best for these flags to be outright removed and for all mods using them to be broken as punishment for using an official feature. I think it's only my mods anyway, and it's already been well established that nobody plays those, so no harm done, right?
User avatar
Kinsie
A Concept Utterly Obsolete
 
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Location: MAP33
Discord: Find Me...
Twitch ID: thekinsie

Re: Removal of +FLATSPRITE and +WALLSPRITE

Postby phantombeta » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:25 pm

No one wants to fix it because it's an utter fucking mess. I also find it amusing that you consider it "gross" and "less-flexible", considering you can do every single thing you can do with flatsprites using quad models - They're pretty much the same thing, the only difference being that flatsprites were hacked into the engine in a messy, broken way that leads to all sorts of issues.
User avatar
phantombeta
In the meadow of sinful thoughts, every flower's a perfect one
 
Joined: 02 May 2013
Location: The United Soviet Socialist Dictatorship of Hueland
Discord: phantombeta#2461
Twitch ID: phantombeta_
Github ID: Doom2fan
Operating System: Windows 10/8.1/8 64-bit
Graphics Processor: nVidia with Vulkan support

Re: Removal of +FLATSPRITE and +WALLSPRITE

Postby Kinsie » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:28 pm

phantombeta wrote:considering you can do every single thing you can do with flatsprites using quad models
Normal, sane sprite animation via DECORATE/ZScript instead of having to define every single frame as a seperate skin in MODELDEF.

EDIT: I'm also pretty sure that, at least up until very recently, model skins didn't handle transparency or special rendertypes very well or at all. I haven't checked recently, but I'd also be surprised if they handle ANIMDEFS warp effects.
User avatar
Kinsie
A Concept Utterly Obsolete
 
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Location: MAP33
Discord: Find Me...
Twitch ID: thekinsie

Re: Removal of +FLATSPRITE and +WALLSPRITE

Postby phantombeta » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:33 pm

DECORATE/ZScript's animation system is not normal nor sane - it's a relic of Doom's backwards method of doing actors, where it tied actions to animations instead of the other way around. In every other non-ancient engine you'd have to manually define the animations separately, somewhat like the ANIMDEFS lump, instead of doing what (G)ZDoom does.
So no, defining every single frame as a separate skin in a separate file is not unusual or insane, it's what pretty much every engine other than Doom's does.
User avatar
phantombeta
In the meadow of sinful thoughts, every flower's a perfect one
 
Joined: 02 May 2013
Location: The United Soviet Socialist Dictatorship of Hueland
Discord: phantombeta#2461
Twitch ID: phantombeta_
Github ID: Doom2fan
Operating System: Windows 10/8.1/8 64-bit
Graphics Processor: nVidia with Vulkan support

Re: Removal of +FLATSPRITE and +WALLSPRITE

Postby Kinsie » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:38 pm

OK then, so "not in an entirely different way than every other 2D, sprite-based actor in the engine".
User avatar
Kinsie
A Concept Utterly Obsolete
 
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Location: MAP33
Discord: Find Me...
Twitch ID: thekinsie

Re: Removal of +FLATSPRITE and +WALLSPRITE

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:40 pm

While I agree that the entire feature was ill conceived (by people who wanted too much flexibility without thinking about the ramifications), I think parts of it are salvageable. What is clearly not are any objects that tilt the sprites. Once you go there it's game over for reliability.
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom Developer
Lead GZDoom Developer
 
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: Germany

Re: Removal of +FLATSPRITE and +WALLSPRITE

Postby Kinsie » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:50 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:I think parts of it are salvageable.
Few agree. What little consensus I've been able to find is that the sprite code is Literally Haunted and that this feature pushed it into Outright Unsalvagable territory.
User avatar
Kinsie
A Concept Utterly Obsolete
 
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Location: MAP33
Discord: Find Me...
Twitch ID: thekinsie

Re: Removal of +FLATSPRITE and +WALLSPRITE

Postby Major Cooke » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:09 pm

Kinsie wrote:I think it's only my mods anyway, and it's already been well established that nobody plays those, so no harm done, right?


The blood splatters I helped you make long ago I also used in D4D. Some other things I made are the syphon grenade, lightning effects, BFG rings and some more. Some of those effects were ported to AEons of Death as well.

I have taken steps to reduce my usage of them overall though, considering that with a model, I can achieve the effect with 1 actor instead of 2... damned lightning effects.

If anything, considering Graf is refactoring the texture system, who knows. We might see such salvaging occur sooner (wishful thinking of course) than later.
User avatar
Major Cooke
Do unto others as you would have unto you. Judge yourself first.
 
Joined: 28 Jan 2007

Re: Removal of +FLATSPRITE and +WALLSPRITE

Postby Kinsie » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:16 pm

Major Cooke wrote:If anything, considering Graf is refactoring the texture system, who knows. We might see such salvaging occur sooner (wishful thinking of course) than later.
The texture system is presumably not the sprite system, and would probably not fix the sorting issues inherent to the sprite system that are routinely bought up, espoused upon at length, and declared unfixable whenever flat sprites come up.

EDIT: Also, if not even the creator of the feature is using it anymore, that's probably not a good argument for keeping it.
User avatar
Kinsie
A Concept Utterly Obsolete
 
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Location: MAP33
Discord: Find Me...
Twitch ID: thekinsie

Re: Removal of +FLATSPRITE and +WALLSPRITE

Postby dpJudas » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:50 pm

Sigh. Apparently one cannot debate with other people on Discord what the purpose and technical differences are between the various sprite forms: normal (billboard), wall, flat, decal.

As I've repeated more than 5 times now to you there's no plans to remove anything and just because I'm talking about the difficulties with using flat sprites as floor decals does not mean I'm about to push something that removes them..

Could you PLEASE STOP with your bullshit now? Thank you!
dpJudas
 
 
 
Joined: 28 May 2016

Re: Removal of +FLATSPRITE and +WALLSPRITE

Postby Rachael » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:58 pm

I am very disappointed.
User avatar
Rachael
Webmaster
 
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Discord: Rachael#3767
Twitch ID: madamerachelle
Github ID: madame-rachelle
Graphics Processor: nVidia with Vulkan support


Return to Closed Feature Suggestions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests