JIT compiler/VM discussion [split]

[argv]

You can disagree with us all day long about it if you want

Then why the hell have you all been barking at me over it for three days now? Disagreeing with a design decision is not a personal insult!

Hearing someone who has to work with a server based Java solution on a daily basis constantly curse about the language's deficiencies certainly does not help.

And yet, hearing complaints about ZScript's deficiencies doesn't seem to bother you at all.

[Rachael]

We're not taking it as a personal insult. But if it's not obvious to you by now, we're vehemently against Java. There may be some indication of that in this thread, I'm hoping it's not too subtle here.

The shortcomings of ZScript we can live with a lot easier because that's our thing - not Oracle's. We're not waiting on some vendor to fix it, who never will, and certainly not for a free project like our's. We don't pay Oracle millions of dollars per year - our opinion matters absolutely zilch to them.

[argv]

But if it's not obvious to you by now, we're vehemently against Java.

Of course it's obvious. I'm not a complete idiot. But you'll have to forgive me for being irritated at all the falsehoods you've been saying about it.

I don't expect you to like it, but I do expect you to not insult me by telling me that I have no idea what I'm talking about, even though I've spent my entire adult life and career working with it (including embedding it in a C application). I admit I'm no James Gosling, but neither am I some fool fresh out of college.

We're not waiting on some vendor to fix it, who never will, and certainly not for a free project like our's. We don't pay Oracle millions of dollars per year - our opinion matters absolutely zilch to them.

That's pretty ironic of you to say, considering that's pretty much the position I'm in with ZScript.

[dpJudas]

I don't expect you to like it, but I do expect you to not insult me by telling me that I have no idea what I'm talking about, even though I've spent my entire adult life and career working with it (including embedding it in a C application). I admit I'm no James Gosling, but neither am I some fool fresh out of college.

Thing is, every single time I've encountered Java in my career I've been underwhelmed by it and puzzled what developers like you see in it (*). The Ask toolbar was just the final straw that made me start actively flaming the tech. Before that I merely disliked it.

I'm sure Rachael meant no disrespect, but given none of us seem to be Java fans, please don't expect us to invest our personal time in something we won't even use professionally if we can avoid it. Debating Java and the JVM further is pointless. Such a solution would require a fork of GZDoom.

That's pretty ironic of you to say, considering that's pretty much the position I'm in with ZScript.

The end user is in that situation no matter what, since they can't control the quality of whatever script solution is chosen. However, if we developers only can forward the request upstream (Oracle in this case), well.. that's a loss of control right there. Sometimes that trade off is worth it, sometimes it is not. You clearly would have chosen differently, but we don't find the value proposition of a Oracle Java solution to be worth the cost.

*) Please don't try explain it to me. I've heard all the arguments before.

[Rachael]

That's pretty ironic of you to say, considering that's pretty much the position I'm in with ZScript.

Such a solution would require a fork of GZDoom.

And with that, I wish you the best of luck. dpJudas laid it out pretty clearly for you, that's the solution to your problem. Have fun with that! I am done here.

[Graf Zahl]

Thing is, every single time I've encountered Java in my career I've been underwhelmed by it and puzzled what developers like you see in it.

Same here. Every single bit of working experience with Java has been negative. Most Java-based software I have used over the years sucks. Oracle is one of the nastiest players in the entire business. All that combined means that I wouldn't ever consider it a viable solution for anything,

@argv: You can complain all you want, but even if it had worked out, you'd have gotten a compromised solution anyway, because neither Java nor Javascript nor AngelScript nor Lua would have been able to seamlessly integrate into the complex thing that is GZDoom.

And please let's not forget one important thing here: When I wrote that code in 2016 I was somehow expecting for Randi to participate and help out. Unfortunately that did not happen so I was left alone with this thing. No, this isn't how it should have gone and had I known before that Randi would just leave and never come back there probably wouldn't be a ZScript today.

[Major Cooke]

As someone whose dealt with their fair share of shit via Java in Minecraft, I can happily say I'm glad that game is slowly moving towards C++ with an API coming towards it. Mod making there is fun and all but also a royal pain in the ass sometimes. I wonder how LexManos (the maker of Minecraft Forge which is the de facto modding API for Minecraft) remains sane...

[Apeirogon]

JIT compiler

What this thing must do? I google it and dont understand what, how, where and whom.

[NeuralStunner]

This is probably the best explanation you're going to get. If you don't understand the mentioned programming concepts already then there isn't really a way to explain it.