"Where's my resolutions?" Read here!

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Re: "Where's my resolutions?" Read here!

Postby Rachael » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:17 pm

I'll say what has been commonly said about this issue: The change was NOT done maliciously, no developer thought there'd be such a big issue about it, and the fact that there is, is actually a surprise to us. Which is why I think it's a bit unfair for people to be harsh towards us for it - we had no idea! It wasn't done maliciously, it was just done on course of development, and if we had known it would cause people to be upset we DEFINITELY would've handled it differently!
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Re: "Where's my resolutions?" Read here!

Postby phantombeta » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:18 pm

TerminusEst13 wrote:
Graf Zahl wrote:I already said, the mode change was removed because it was a source of endless problems.
And with Vulkan this would have spelled serious trouble so it got removed before I started with that.


Such as?

What Graf is talking about here is mode changing (i.e. exclusive fullscreen), which is a pretty garbage method of doing fullscreen.
Using anything other than the current resolution with exclusive mode fullscreen leads to windows and icons going everywhere, which gets even worse if you have more than one monitor.

The resolution list itself is unrelated to mode changing.

Eric_ wrote:Why wasn't this change implemented in QZDoom first? Isn't the entire point of that fork to be able to make radical changes without interfering with normal user operation, thus avoiding PR disasters like this?

AFAIK because it's not for "making radical changes". It's for testing experimental, bleeding-edge features that can make the entire engine unstable or even completely unusable if they break.
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Re: "Where's my resolutions?" Read here!

Postby edward850 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:20 pm

Don't you still have a software renderer? What happens if the user has a 4K display, because I don't think even modern CPUs are going to drive a 4K software renderer quite that effectively.
A 3rd party solution is not an answer, especially in an age where UWP games and even some console games have user facing resolution options.
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Re: "Where's my resolutions?" Read here!

Postby Rachael » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:21 pm

phantombeta wrote:
Eric_ wrote:Why wasn't this change implemented in QZDoom first? ...

AFAIK because it's not for "making radical changes". It's for testing experimental, bleeding-edge features that can make the entire engine unstable or even completely unusable if they break.

This is false.

It wasn't in QZDoom because I never thought it would be needed. As I said in the post before your's, I didn't think people would be upset with the change. Had I known, then I would've indeed done it in QZDoom.
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Re: "Where's my resolutions?" Read here!

Postby Rachael » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:21 pm

edward850 wrote:Don't you still have a software renderer? What happens if the user has a 4K display, because I don't think even modern CPUs are going to drive a 4K software renderer quite that effectively.
A 3rd party solution is not an answer, especially in an age where UWP games and even some console games have user facing resolution options.

GZDoom already has a scaling system to handle that.
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Re: "Where's my resolutions?" Read here!

Postby Graf Zahl » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:23 pm

Cardboard Marty wrote:I totally get what you mean here, but for HUD and menu design, I like to account for the commonly used resolutions people might actually play in. I'm sure somebody does play in something like 1000x500, but if my HUD breaks in 1000x500 I'm not too worried, as opposed to 1024x768, you know?


What makes you think that these resolutions are "common"? GZDoom has been able to live-resize the window for quite some time and you'd be surprised what people actually use.
Your attitude won't do you any good, with such a testing approach your mod WILL break on some system - if not now, it will sometime in the future when displays show up nobody is thinking about these days.

Remember all those games from the 90's which were hardlocked to 4:3? They all look like crap on modern 16:9 monitors. Who guarantees that in 5-6 years 21:9 won't be the default aspect ratio? I don't know and you don't either, yet you want to restrict your testing to some "common" resolutions and completely forget that something that is "common" now will inevitably become an anomaly in the future. It happened to 640x480, to 800x600, to 1024x768 and also to 1280x1024. If you look around all these consitute a minority of displays. Most current displays are either 1366x768, 1920x1080, 1920x1200 or something even higher. If you make sure that your layout works on some outlandish window sizes of varying aspect ratios it will work everywhere.
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Re: "Where's my resolutions?" Read here!

Postby iSpook » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:24 pm

Rachael wrote:I'll say what has been commonly said about this issue: The change was NOT done maliciously, no developer thought there'd be such a big issue about it, and the fact that there is, is actually a surprise to us. Which is why I think it's a bit unfair for people to be harsh towards us for it - we had no idea! It wasn't done maliciously, it was just done on course of development, and if we had known it would cause people to be upset we DEFINITELY would've handled it differently!


...Really? You didn't foresee that people being harsh towards you guys for taking away a common, useful feature for something that is (Probably) not going to be seen by us for a short while (at the very least)? I mean, I don't want to be rude but that seems silly.
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Re: "Where's my resolutions?" Read here!

Postby Graf Zahl » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:26 pm

Rachael wrote:
edward850 wrote:Don't you still have a software renderer? What happens if the user has a 4K display, because I don't think even modern CPUs are going to drive a 4K software renderer quite that effectively.
A 3rd party solution is not an answer, especially in an age where UWP games and even some console games have user facing resolution options.

GZDoom already has a scaling system to handle that.



And I made pretty damn sure that the scaling system still works.

And regarding the third party option, it was Major Cooke who came up with that (and even made a feature request so that the engine doesn't inconvenience his third party solution!) At no time did any developer endorse such a shitty way of doing things.
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Re: "Where's my resolutions?" Read here!

Postby Rachael » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:28 pm

iSpook wrote:...Really? You didn't foresee that people being harsh towards you guys for taking away a common, useful feature for something that is (Probably) not going to be seen by us for a short while (at the very least)? I mean, I don't want to be rude but that seems silly.

Are you expecting us to be robots?

We're human.

And we're definitely not oracles or omniscient. We can't see the future. What you consider a "useful feature" might've been a feature we personally never used.
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Re: "Where's my resolutions?" Read here!

Postby iSpook » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:31 pm

Rachael wrote:
iSpook wrote:...Really? You didn't foresee that people being harsh towards you guys for taking away a common, useful feature for something that is (Probably) not going to be seen by us for a short while (at the very least)? I mean, I don't want to be rude but that seems silly.

Are you expecting us to be robots?

We're human.

And we're definitely not oracles or omniscient. We can't see the future. What you consider a "useful feature" might've just been window dressing to us.


No, I was expecting you guys to go "Okay this thing we don't like and don't think is important MAY be important to those who use what we're working on, maybe we should ASK them about it, instead of removing it, and then telling them that it wasn't important"

Because, you know, what's window dressing to you might be important to us, and feedback from the community is kind of important.
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Re: "Where's my resolutions?" Read here!

Postby Cardboard Marty » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:33 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:What makes you think that these resolutions are "common"? GZDoom has been able to live-resize the window for quite some time and you'd be surprised what people actually use.
Your attitude won't do you any good, with such a testing approach your mod WILL break on some system - if not now, it will sometime in the future when displays show up nobody is thinking about these days.

Remember all those games from the 90's which were hardlocked to 4:3? They all look like crap on modern 16:9 monitors. Who guarantees that in 5-6 years 21:9 won't be the default aspect ratio? I don't know and you don't either, yet you want to restrict your testing to some "common" resolutions and completely forget that something that is "common" now will inevitably become an anomaly in the future. It happened to 640x480, to 800x600, to 1024x768 and also to 1280x1024. If you look around all these consitute a minority of displays. Most current displays are either 1366x768, 1920x1080, 1920x1200 or something even higher. If you make sure that your layout works on some outlandish window sizes of varying aspect ratios it will work everywhere.

Well, I did start my post with "I totally get what you mean here", so I do understand that. I thought providing an example of utilizing those specific sizes might help you as a developer understand an instance where someone might like this specific feature for ease of access. I can't really guarantee anything I make will look and play well in 2028, so you're totally correct on that front. Just my three cents is all!
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Re: "Where's my resolutions?" Read here!

Postby TerminusEst13 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:34 pm

Rachael wrote:Which is why I think it's a bit unfair for people to be harsh towards us for it - we had no idea! It wasn't done maliciously, it was just done on course of development, and if we had known it would cause people to be upset we DEFINITELY would've handled it differently!


The reaction in this thread has been probably the most civil I've seen in a long time. I've had people talk shit to me while I'm devving on-stream harder than this.
The worst that can be said is that people have negative opinions on this and aren't fond of the change. We're not.
I mean, I can't read the guest posts so who knows, maybe some anonymous people have been going "this fucking sucks and fuck you and fuck gzdoom and FUCK SPAGHETTI", but this isn't anywhere near that level.

Graf Zahl wrote:Some people here really make me question why IK should up with this pile of self-entitlement.


If anything, this is harsher than anything anyone has said.
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Re: "Where's my resolutions?" Read here!

Postby wildweasel » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:35 pm

What I've honestly seen a lot of today, is this, and I'll explain:
Image
The alt-text is worth quoting, too:
There are probably children out there holding down spacebar to stay warm in the winter! YOUR UPDATE MURDERS CHILDREN.


The problem, I suppose, is one of perspective as well as diplomacy. I don't claim to speak for the devs here, but the screen resolution menu has been, frankly, the stuff of nightmares for a long while (maybe even since 1.17 - I've never known the resolution menu to NOT be at least slightly broken, to be honest) and it's been long, long overdue for being thrown out and done from the ground up. But where the perspective issue comes into play, is if you're the kind of player who is always running the game in a maximized window and only changing the Resolution Scale slider as needed, then you don't tend to think about the other players who use exclusive fullscreen at 640x480 despite being on a 1080p flatpanel. There are a lot of use cases out there, with different needs.

To use myself as an example, I was used to getting flak from people who play my mods because I include recoil effects. Some users play keyboard-only and complain about having to recenter their view every few seconds. Others get motion sickness from heavy screen-shaking. After a number of years of this (and the addition of CVARINFO/MENUDEF), I did eventually find a nicer, more user-friendly way of allowing the recoil to be adjusted or disabled. But because I only ever play with mouselook (or occasionally a controller), it never occured to me before that recoil would pose a significant gameplay issue.

Controllers, then, are also a perspective thing. I occasionally do play GZDoom with an XBox One controller, because I find it to be more comfortable at times than resting my arms on the desk. Despite the loss in aiming precision, movement becomes much more fluid. But there are occasionally mods that do not account for controller input at all, with custom menus not functioning correctly, cursor movement not accounting for inverted look controls, or "dash" moves that assume the player has Always Run enabled. And in a lot of cases, these assumptions cannot be relied upon. Some players may not have access to the proper desktop setup; Delta Touch is a thing I'm seeing more usage of lately (and a thing I recently purchased to help debug some issues that could not otherwise be tested for). Were it not for players like myself reporting these issues, many of them would go unknown or unfixed. But it boils down to actually reporting them, going through the channels, and not acting as if the issue is murdering children, like in the comic above.

Should the backlash over these specific changes have been anticipated? Arguably, yes, because one cannot account for all of the use cases by oneself. But should it then be a diplomatic issue, of needing to inform people in advance that this feature is changing, etc.? No. What should be going on is the changes should be going to, say, an experimental branch, and then an open call be put out for testing, bug collecting, and specific concerns over how the New Way affects the Old Way.

But let's think of GZDoom as a model car kit. Say the model builder is attaching the body to the chassis. It's only a model, so the builder just puts it in a place where it fits and looks correct to him. Except it is then argued that this car would not pass a crash-test, fails DEQ emissions, and is not safe in which to install a child safety seat. The problem isn't that these aren't legit concerns - in most applications, these are critical problems for a car to have! But it's a scale model in this case, and not something that's going to Literally Kill People. Adjustments can be made on a reasonable basis of free time. Maybe someone with a keen eye can look at the body assembly and suggest to the builder, "Say, that front bumper seems a bit misaligned, is there too much glue over the axle?" Or, "Wasn't this door supposed to be on a hinge? I see you've glued it in place, but it may work better if we use this hinge pin instead."

I suppose I am rambling an awful lot here, but hopefully some of this may be of some insight to someone. In the meantime, the finer points of the problem are being looked at right now, and the overall issue has been raised through proper channels. With any luck (and forbearance from any further explosions in threads like this), this will have been taken care of before 3.5 launches.

All I can ask is some patience and understanding from all angles.
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Re: "Where's my resolutions?" Read here!

Postby Rachael » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:35 pm

iSpook wrote:No, I was expecting you guys to go "Okay this thing we don't like and don't think is important MAY be important to those who use what we're working on, maybe we should ASK them about it, instead of removing it, and then telling them that it wasn't important"

Because, you know, what's window dressing to you might be important to us, and feedback from the community is kind of important.

And the way you are saying this, is like we are not even ALLOWED to make mistakes - and I am sorry, but that is completely, 100% unreasonable under ANY circumstance! If you can't accept that we make mistakes, then you are going to be SORELY disappointed in the future, because guess what, we're human and we honestly can't avoid making them! No matter how hard we try!

So get ready for another one, because I will GUARANTEE you it will be there, and like this there will be no malicious intent behind it - it'll just be something where we didn't anticipate people would get so upset.

The problem here is you expect more from us than is actually reasonable, here. We can't be your robots. Sorry, but that's just not possible, and least of all tenable.

We can't avoid making change in this engine. Change is inevitable. And that's something people will have to get used to, as well, because we can't move forward and embrace newer technologies without it. And for those people stuck with older hardware - sorry, but there are people with new hardware too, and who want to make use of cool new features. That's the nature of the best. We try to cater to everyone we can, but ultimately we can only cater to as many people as possible, and that's it.
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Re: "Where's my resolutions?" Read here!

Postby Graf Zahl » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:37 pm

TerminusEst13 wrote:If anything, this is harsher than anything anyone has said.


Maybe, maybe not. But iSpook's posts certainly warranted that response.
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