The Future

Shadelight · Post by **Shadelight** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:14 am

wait, wait I've got a better one:

ZDoom Scripting Extroidinare!!!

ZDSE

Hirogen2 · Post by **Hirogen2** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:58 am

How about just "Z", in analogy to "C".
The compiler would then be zcc.

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:01 pm

What compiler?

Siggi · Post by **Siggi** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:33 pm

If I read the first post correctly, then there would be an optional external compiler, but a compiler would also be built into ZDoom.

Shadelight · Post by **Shadelight** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:10 pm

KingofFlames wrote:ZDSE

Belial · Post by **Belial** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:12 pm

@KoF: You're a moron...

Apothem wrote:Oh oh oh! I got one! ZDSE!
Zdoom Scriting extension. I'll prolly figure out a better name later down the line.

...and a thief.

HobbsTiger1 · Post by **HobbsTiger1** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:17 pm

I strongly support the above poster.

Anyway, an idea, simple though it may be, ZSS (Zdoom Scripting System/Syntax/whatever the hell you want).

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:02 pm

Psycho Siggi wrote:If I read the first post correctly, then there would be an optional external compiler, but a compiler would also be built into ZDoom.

I sincerely hope that there won't be an external compiler. That's what makes VavoomC so useless because you still have to recompile everything for the tiniest change. Unless the internal parser is total crap today's computers are fast enough to handle this in source form.

Post by **randi** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:48 pm

To reiterate: The compiler will be built-in. For very large projects (i.e. all the ZDoom built-in classes), there may be an external compiler. Using VCC as a guide, each game takes about one second to compile on my Athlon 64 3500+. I want to use LCC to help make an optimizing compiler, so maybe add on another second. So possibly five seconds longer for startup. I know some people would complain about an increased startup time like that, so we will see how things go.

An external compiler, if made, would generate packages of compiled class data. You would not be expected to touch the built-in classes and would only recompile your own stuff. But I doubt anybody would need something like that, since they're not likely to be writing thousands of classes.

Shadelight · Post by **Shadelight** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:57 pm

will sprites and sounds work for all games so you can summon monsters in any game?
(just wondering....)

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:36 pm

randy wrote:To reiterate: The compiler will be built-in. For very large projects (i.e. all the ZDoom built-in classes), there may be an external compiler. Using VCC as a guide, each game takes about one second to compile on my Athlon 64 3500+.

But that includes a lot of redundancy and even more internal code. Do you really want to move the entire engine into the scripts as well?

I want to use LCC to help make an optimizing compiler, so maybe add on another second. So possibly five seconds longer for startup. I know some people would complain about an increased startup time like that, so we will see how things go.

Right now ZDoom needs 11 seconds to start on my system if none of the data is in the system's cache. Most of that is a result of the texture initialization which currently reads every single patch to get its format and dimension. I'd rather optimize that than sacrificing the flexibility of an internal compiler.

An external compiler, if made, would generate packages of compiled class data. You would not be expected to touch the built-in classes and would only recompile your own stuff. But I doubt anybody would need something like that, since they're not likely to be writing thousands of classes.

If you only put the stuff from the g_* directories into the external data you won't have to worry about performance at all. You wouldn't even need to bother about code optimization because most of the time they need it spent in internal functions like P_SpawnMissile or P_LineAttack anyway. The overhead for interpreting the code is negligible. Even something like A_Chase doesn't really matter because it doesn't contribute much overall processing time.

Post by **randi** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:27 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:But that includes a lot of redundancy and even more internal code.

Not really. I wouldn't actually write an external compiler. It would just be a frontend to the main program that just invokes the compiler, dumps its output, and quits. Could be useful for offline error checking even if it isn't necessary for performance.

Graf Zahl wrote:Do you really want to move the entire engine into the scripts as well?

Of course not. Certainly not as much as Vavoom, anyway.

Graf Zahl wrote:Right now ZDoom needs 11 seconds to start on my system if none of the data is in the system's cache.

Wow. It only takes 4 seconds to start on mine with nothing cached.

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:46 pm

randy wrote:
Graf Zahl wrote:But that includes a lot of redundancy and even more internal code.
Not really. I wouldn't actually write an external compiler. It would just be a frontend to the main program that just invokes the compiler, dumps its output, and quits. Could be useful for offline error checking even if it isn't necessary for performance.

I meant redundancy in Vavoom's code. If you are measuring the total time for all games you have to remember that the whole engine code (which you don't want to externalize) has to be compiled 4 times - and that is the major bulk of the time required. Compiling the stuff you really need should be considerably shorter. I once did some tests with the ACS compiler attempting the same thing (and abandoning it due to the lack if type checking and other related problems) and the compile time for the actor definitions and code pointers was well under a second.

GeeDougg · Post by **GeeDougg** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:10 pm

The "About" page for GZDooM is "under construction" (yes, I know, it's captain obvious to the rescue again) so I had to get some info from the FAQ and from what I understand GZDooM is not even related to ZDooM.... 'Cuz idiotic as it might sound to you people I actually thought it was a Graphical version of ZDooM (perhaps an alternate one from ZDooMGL as I saw it - fuck, I don't know; I'm an idiot leammealone) of . My bad. Don't look at me like that. No I'm not, you are. Fark off.

skadoomer · Post by **skadoomer** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:53 pm

KingofFlames wrote:will sprites and sounds work for all games so you can summon monsters in any game?
(just wondering....)

I would guess so because you can already summon any class of monster provided you give the engine the graphical and sound resources for it. I don't see why this would change.

But I doubt anybody would need something like that, since they're not likely to be writing thousands of classes.

Out of curisoty, how many classes are in any one of the games supported by zdoom? Are they really into the thousands?