[Not a bug] Frozen Monsters

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Frozen Monsters

Postby Nanami » Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:05 am

I was playing with some of the weapons I put together and noticed something pretty odd. In 52 it seems that frozen things with large radii can be pushed in really odd ways. It's hard to explain so I made a demo with an arachnotron.

I used an arachnotron in the demo but it's really more fun with a spider mastermind. Unfortunately freeze mode (unrelated to ice freezes, heh) doesn't get recorded in demos so when I played it back I just got shot to death.

File's too big for an attachment so here: http://nami.mancubus.net/hehwtf.zip
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Postby randi » Fri Oct 31, 2003 10:40 am

All I can see in that demo is you sliding the frozen monster along the wall. I don't see any bug.
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Postby HotWax » Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:22 pm

Looks fine to me as well. It might seem odd to you that you're pushing the monster against a wall and he suddenly shoots off to the left or right, but seeing as how that's exactly how a real ice cube would act....
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Postby Nanami » Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:02 pm

It just seems odd to me, especially when you do it to a larger monster. Pushing a spider mastermind along a wall at about 40 miles an hour is a little odd...

Anyway, if it's not a bug go ahead and dump this thread in closed. =P
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Postby Graf Zahl » Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:11 pm

Pushing is not and was never mass-dependent. So you'll push anything with the same speed. I don't know whether it makes sense to change this. It's definitely not a bug.
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Postby HotWax » Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:31 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:Pushing is not and was never mass-dependent. So you'll push anything with the same speed. I don't know whether it makes sense to change this. It's definitely not a bug.


Well, these things ARE made of ice. Ice pretty much removes all the friction between the object and the floor. It makes a kind of convoluted sense for the object to slide quickly across the wall after you push it against it. The bigger the object is, the move surface area you have to push on, and therefore the faster the object gets "shot away" when it slips out of your grasp to one side. :)
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Postby Graf Zahl » Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:01 pm

Sure, but the momentum you give to an object by pushing it should normally be proportional to the mass, given you use the same force to push (according to real world physics ;) ) I wasn't talking about friction. These are 2 completely different things.
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Postby HotWax » Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:10 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:Sure, but the momentum you give to an object by pushing it should normally be proportional to the mass, given you use the same force to push (according to real world physics ;) ) I wasn't talking about friction. These are 2 completely different things.


Ah, but the same force is NOT being applied at all!

If you freeze a zombie and press him against a wall, when he "ejects" his momentum will be caused by the force you're pressing against one side of him or the other. Since a zombie is thin, this force will only be applied for a short time.

If you freeze a spiderdemon and do the same, it will remain in contact with the player longer and thus more force will be applied that will propel it further and faster along the wall's surface away from the player.

Or something. :)
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Postby Graf Zahl » Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:40 pm

HotWax wrote:
Graf Zahl wrote:Sure, but the momentum you give to an object by pushing it should normally be proportional to the mass, given you use the same force to push (according to real world physics ;) ) I wasn't talking about friction. These are 2 completely different things.


Ah, but the same force is NOT being applied at all!

If you freeze a zombie and press him against a wall, when he "ejects" his momentum will be caused by the force you're pressing against one side of him or the other. Since a zombie is thin, this force will only be applied for a short time.

If you freeze a spiderdemon and do the same, it will remain in contact with the player longer and thus more force will be applied that will propel it further and faster along the wall's surface away from the player.

Or something. :)



Sure, that's the way Doom works and that's exactly what I was trying to prove to be physically wrong. The problem with Doom's pushing code is that mass is never taken into account. You need much more force to push a massive object in reality. In Doom this is not the case.
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Postby Nanami » Fri Oct 31, 2003 8:36 pm

I don't know about the rest of you, but it doesn't make sense to me that you can push a 50 pound block of ice across concrete just as fast as 4 tons of ice across concrete.
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Postby HotWax » Sat Nov 01, 2003 2:27 am

Well Graf, I agree with you, but still don't want anything changed. Just chalk it up as yet another instance where Doom physics and the Real World(TM) don't quite agree. :D
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Postby Graf Zahl » Sat Nov 01, 2003 2:59 am

Frankly, I don't care. If the game is supposed to behave this way, so be it. I just wanted to point out the illogic behavior. ;)
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