[Fixed] [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC)

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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Warrex » Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:21 am

Well It is a scaled up M1. ST performance will be the same and MT performance will be ca. 1,7x higher due to the 8/2 instead of 4/4 design (performance cores / efficiency cores). Early Geekbench cores seem to confirm this and indicate that it is as fast as the older 12 Core Intel CPU in the Mac Pro: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/10/18/first-m1-max-geekbench-score-surfaces/

GPU performance will be rougly 2x (M1 Pro) or 4x (M1 Max) the performance of the M1. Again if e.g. the M1 Max is ca. as fast as a mobile Geforce RTX 3080 as Apple's charts suggest then this fits perfectly.

I am personally sticking with my older 16" Intel MacBook as still want to be able to run Windows but the new one is a beast which I could not use to its full potential (apart from video editing in Resolve from time to time) without more games being available on the Mac.

Still love the M1 Mac Mini for being fast enough for almost anything I do under macOS, for feeling very responsive, having fast I/O and being dead silent. I was annoyed though that they brought 10 Gbit Ethernet to it after I had bought one and not at launch... :roll:
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:46 am

Warrex wrote:Well It is a scaled up M1. ST performance will be the same and MT performance will be ca. 1,7x higher due to the 8/2 instead of 4/4 design (performance cores / efficiency cores).


Ok then. This sounds more like it. Of course what isn't said is that many tasks cannot benefit from the added cores that much to begin with.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Warrex » Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:37 pm

The M1 Max is nicely balanced for people working in media production etc. with 64GB of unified memory and ProRes HW encoders/decoders being the wet dream of everyone editing 8K footage or 4K footage with many adjustments. The mini LED display with a sustain max brightness of 1000 nits does not hurt either to appeal to these customers.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:50 pm

You know, when I see specs like this, my only question is "Hands up who sees the problem":

$2,499 for an M1 Pro with 16-core GPU, 16GB Unified Memory, and 512GB SSD storage
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Rachael » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:01 pm

Modern GPU's should not have so few cores. Most desktop GPU's these days do not come with less than 256 cores, and that's at a bare minimum. Of course, that's fine for less powered GPU's, oh but the price though ... typical Apple severe overpricing for the actual horsepower you get from the hardware.

With that kind of money you're much better off buying a full desktop with an RTX 3080 than you are one of those. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. That price is simply robbery. There's no way an M1 can match the performance of a full dedicated machine for even HALF the price, and you're basically dropping a fortune just to be a glorified beta tester.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:45 pm

Even assuming that the performance claims are legitimate, I think that a computer for $2500 being equipped with only 16 GB of unified memory and a 512 GB SSD is very, very severely understuffed. Neither enough RAM nor enough storage for such a price.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Rachael » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:50 pm

Yes, that too.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby dpJudas » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:16 pm

Yes Apple charges an absolute fortune for those new laptops. On the other hand, if you buy the mid-tier configuration with 32 gigs of ram and 1 TB disk space you IMHO get by far the best laptop on the market. Nothing from PC laptops even come close. The battery life and (lack of) fan noise alone is light years ahead. Their mouse track pads, audio and displays (*) too. The only drawback as laptops really is that it is Apple with all that implies on the software front.

Naturally, if your goal is maximum performance and you truly need that then you shouldn't be buying a laptop in the first place. Apple doesn't really offer anything in that category though. Mac Pro's always been more about showing how much money you have than gettingactual work done. :)

*) Well, except that web camera cut out they did this time around. That's actually a deal breaker for me personally. Oh, and really disappointed they only offer them in those same stupid grey colors we've been spoon fed with for 15 years now. Had so hoped they'd offer the full palette from the iMacs.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Warrex » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:23 pm

We are talking about a notebook that does not go to a lower perfomance mode when unplugged (!) with

- a 120hz 16" Mini LED display
- a CPU with the performance of a AMD Ryzen 9 3900X or an Intel Core i9-11900K
- a GPU ca. as fast as a desktop NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 (M1 Pro) or a desktop NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 / mobile RTX 3080 (M1 Max)
- up to 64 GB of RAM / VRAM
- several Thunderbolt 4 ports
- a very good speaker system
- very good mics
- the same build quality as other Apple notebooks
- great battery life (thanks dpjudas for reminding me)

Find a comparable cheaper notebook with specs that match those of a build you did on the Apple website. Good luck! Especially good luck if you should need more than 16 gigs of VRAM...

You may not be the target audience but this does not mean that the price is unreasonable.
Last edited by Warrex on Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:26 pm

dpJudas wrote:Yes Apple charges an absolute fortune for those new laptops. On the other hand, if you buy the mid-tier configuration with 32 gigs of ram and 1 TB disk space you IMHO get by far the best laptop on the market. Nothing from PC laptops even come close. The battery life and (lack of) fan noise alone is light years ahead. Their mouse track pads, audio and displays (*) too. The only drawback as laptops really is that it is Apple with all that implies on the software front.



Yeah, if that ran on anything not controlled by Apple I'd really be tempted - screw the high price. I don't really understand how all the other manufacturers could let Apple run away with that form factor and not put up even a hint of a fight...
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby dpJudas » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:29 pm

Warrex wrote:- a CPU with the performance of a AMD Ryzen 9 3900X or an Intel Core i9-11900K
- a GPU ca. as fast as a desktop NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 (M1 Pro) or a desktop NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 / mobile RTX 3080 (M1 Max)

No, the CPU doesn't have the performance of those desktop CPUs. The laptop thermally throttles itself eventually while the desktop PC counter part will not. Likewise the 3080 they compare against is the mobile version - something that runs like total trash compared to the desktop version. Apple has a very good SoC here, but they can't beat physics.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Warrex » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:33 pm

dpJudas wrote:
Warrex wrote:- a CPU with the performance of a AMD Ryzen 9 3900X or an Intel Core i9-11900K
- a GPU ca. as fast as a desktop NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 (M1 Pro) or a desktop NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 / mobile RTX 3080 (M1 Max)

No, the CPU doesn't have the performance of those desktop CPUs. The laptop thermally throttles itself eventually while the desktop PC counter part will not. Likewise the 3080 they compare against is the mobile version - something that runs like total trash compared to the desktop version. Apple has a very good SoC here, but they can't beat physics.


The CPU will or will not throttle. That remains to be seen. I compared to the geekbench score for now (https://browser.geekbench.com/processor-benchmarks and see my post above). You cited me writng that the GPU is comparable to a 3060 desktop or 3080 mobile.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby dpJudas » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:42 pm

Warrex wrote:The CPU will or will not throttle. That remains to be seen. I compared to the geekbench score for now

Okay now you just went into full Mac fanboy mode, sorry to say. Of course it will throttle. And geekbench is well known for not running long enough to get CPUs out of the speed boost stage where they intentionally overclock to get short tasks done quicker.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Warrex » Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:11 pm

dpJudas wrote:
Warrex wrote:The CPU will or will not throttle. That remains to be seen. I compared to the geekbench score for now

Okay now you just went into full Mac fanboy mode, sorry to say. Of course it will throttle. And geekbench is well known for not running long enough to get CPUs out of the speed boost stage where they intentionally overclock to get short tasks done quicker.


Sigh. Guys, I am not trying to sell you a notebook and I am writing this on a desktop PC with an Intel CPU.

I did not say that it won't throttle. I am just saying let's wait and see. IIRC Apple started the keynote with how much they improved the cooling. Intel CPUs throttled like crazy in notebooks when they were still on the 14nm process. This is an ARM-CPU in a big notebook with a new cooling system and the CPU occupies only a small part of the die in the M1 Max.

So maybe it also throttles like crazy, maybe it only throttles when the whole SoC gets lit up (and not when SW video encoding, etc.) and maybe it does not throttle at all under room temp. I do not know and so do you.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby dpJudas » Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:55 pm

Just in case we are talking across each other here:

When I'm saying throttling I mean the fact that all CPU's today can go super fast if only you can equally super cool them. All current laptop CPU's, and I no reason to think Apple somehow magically completely changed the game here (current M1 sure didn't), are restricted at how efficiently they can cool things. This means a laptop can only approach desktop PC speeds for a limited time period, but if you truly are performing heavy duty work on that laptop eventually the entire laptop and its CPU die will have become so hot it can no longer run at the same frequencies/wattage as a desktop PC with the same CPU architecture can. The desktop PC has a huge gigantic heat sink on top of it! That's why I call it bullshit to say those new laptops can compete with a desktop PC, because they really can't. It is the same reason I mentioned the 3080 desktop version as Apple intentionally muddies the communication to get the average consumer to think the hardware is more powerful than it really is. The speed difference between a 3060 and 3080 is quite substantial. And so it will be with a desktop class CPU vs the M1 Pro Max Super duper.

I call you a fanboy for the fact you seem to take every claim from Apple at face value, with no critical reflection. Stuff like saying Apple generally don't exaggerate their performance claims. Every statement they do is in the category of world best this and world best that. When the antenna in the iPhone wasn't working well it was the users holding it wrong! It takes a true fan to take that in raw. :) Now that doesn't mean their new laptops aren't great, because they really are, but let's keep it realistic here!
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