[Fixed] [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC)

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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Warrex » Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:49 pm

In heavily MT workloads like Cinebench R23 it is 10% faster than the Intel 6C Core i7 @ the same clock speed from the last gen Mac Minis (Core i7-8700B @ 3,2 GHz) (https://www.computerbase.de/2020-11/cin ... enchmarks/) and in ST workloads it is clock for clock faster than anything else and only rivaled by AMDs ZEN3 CPUs. All while being absolutely silent and cool which is very important to me. The M1 only has 4 high performance cores but Apple will scale this up soon and they have a lot of headroom considering its thermals and power draw (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201897).

But you are right that there is a lot of optimization potential for ARM64 in GZDoom. :) My 5 year old Core i7 6700K Intel 4C @ 4 GHz reaches 70fps in the same scene. Dota 2 uses MoltenVK and is basically as fast on the Mac as on Windows (https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= ... untu&num=2). Apple to oranges, I know (pun intended)...

But after all I did not buy the Mac Mini for playing GZDoom but for Davinci Resolve, Lightroom and Handbrake with x265 (one of the most heavily x86 optimized apps and it is still worth it). Still nice to see that the M1 runs GZDoom fast enough for basically anything. So thank you for compiling for ARM64!
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Graf Zahl » Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:05 pm

What will be interesting now is if someone manages to build a competitive Windows machine using ARM.
What the M1 clearly shows is that x86 no longer has an inherent advantage over ARM performance wise - and we all know that ARM is infinitely better with power consumption so it'd be just natural that it can be pushed a lot further.

And its GPU surely is far and away the most powerful integrated graphics hardware around. We'll see how Intel and AMD will react to that, because if they don't they'll have a major problem...
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Warrex » Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:54 pm

Intel slowly wakes up:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/15/2223 ... us-comment
https://www.gizmochina.com/2021/01/27/i ... tsmc-2022/

But they will have a very hard time:
https://images.anandtech.com/doci/16226 ... ectory.png
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... urface-pcs

...and Apple has its own complete eco system which is a MASSIVE advantage. Just take a look how Windows 10 on ARM has fared so far.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Graf Zahl » Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:36 am

Warrex wrote:Just take a look how Windows 10 on ARM has fared so far.


That's mainly because it hasn't been taken seriously so far. The only offering of an ARM machine for Windows has been in the low end segment. The good thing is, there *IS* a working Windows version for ARM, so it's not starting at zero. Now if Microsoft did the right thing of removing the pointless restrictions (e.g. D3D only, with no Vulkan or OpenGL) and championing a competitive hardware setup based on ARM, things might be different. The excuse that ARM only makes sense in the low end segment surely has been decisively disproven now.

I honestly do not see x86 to survive long term. By now ARM looks to be far better suited for the future, as there's a lot more competition and less reliance on one or two manufacturers. Intel has mostly played the same game as Microsoft under Ballmer, but unlike Microsoft they have far less options to branch out and if their core business comes under pressure things may turn ugly quickly.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby dpJudas » Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:00 am

On the other hand, comparing the Apple M1 to the current best x64 CPUs from AMD is a bit tricky. That's because both the rest of the hardware as well as the OS differs so that any number you get out could give you the wrong conclusions. I also do wonder how much of an advantage the M1 gets from having all its memory on chip.

Another thing that will be very interesting to see is how the battery time is on the upcoming AMD Zen 3 mobile CPUs. AMD already holds a significant advantage here over Intel. All in all, I think it's not really fair to use Intel CPUs anymore as the x64-cpu-to-beat as their CPUs really are in a lot of trouble in general for many reasons.

For ARM, Apple really showed how much it helps to add some x64 friendly instructions for emulation. If Windows on ARM is ever to take off they absolutely need that to persuade normal users to switch. Can Apple's ARM competitors copy that? It certainly is interesting to see where we go from here. :)
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Graf Zahl » Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:46 am

While there's surely a strong software component making the M1 so fast, there's two important things to consider here:

1. This is just the first chip of its kind and it strongly shows where future performance may be gained.
2. It doesn't even run at the maximum achievable clock frequency.

So consider massive improvements to come here.
Combined with the considerably lesser complexity of its inner workings it looks like it's inevitable for further performance increases to reconsider how to build computers and to treat ARM as a serious target.
Since Apple has now proven that this approach is working, I expect this to be the start of a major shake-up in the entire computing sector - and TBH, it's about time that something happens here.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Warrex » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:35 am

Yeah, and apart from the M1 being capable HW it is also HW that is exciting for many developers to play around with (unified memory with very low latency between the CPU an GPU, dedicated machine learning cores, etc.) just so see what they can do.

That you can rely on these features on the platform will probably mean that support for Intel based Macs will be phased out by many devs sooner rather than later.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Graf Zahl » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:48 am

I wouldn't expect that. There's simply too many of them still in the market. It'll take many years until they all can be replaced. At work I just got a new one earlier last year - too bad, actually, had that old MacBook not broken down I might have considered an M1 model. Would have been an interesting toy to play around with.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby dpJudas » Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:26 am

Keep in mind that while the M1 doesn't use a fan in the mac mini and mac book air, it does use one in the mac book pro. How fast can it go? We'll see. I'm certainly keeping an eye out for anything high end from Apple that's for sure. But at the same time, while it does win big time in the same class it is competing in, in some of the tests I saw it also lost against certain mid-range AMD CPUs. That's why I'm saying it is difficult to fully conclude where we go from here. I think we still need more data.

Don't get me wrong though. I, too, have been considering getting the M1 just to toy around with it. It is the first ARM CPU I've seen that actually interests me. :)
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Rachael » Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:31 am

That is interesting.

Well - apparently the M1 Macs still have Boot Camp. So if you get sick of Mac OS ... there's still always an alternative. ;)

Though - to be quite frank, I expect that drivers will be far better developed on Linux at this point than Windows for ARM, but that is sure to change in the future if Microsoft's ARM Windows offerings can at any point compete with Apple's.

There's a misconception that there's no hardware acceleration other than Direct3D for Windows ARM at this point - which from what I have seen simply isn't true. What's really missing is actual driver support. But at the OS level everything is nearly identical to x64, other than having an emulation subsystem to support x86/x64 compiled programs.

As far as Vulkan goes - unlike with OpenGL, Windows does not actually provide the backend for that. The GPU driver does, directly. I'm sure to remain standards compliant the GPU's Vulkan dll has to call up ICD's like OpenGL does - but Microsoft provides no Vulkan support at all, whatsoever - neutered or otherwise.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Graf Zahl » Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:03 am

dpJudas wrote:Keep in mind that while the M1 doesn't use a fan in the mac mini and mac book air, it does use one in the mac book pro. How fast can it go? We'll see. I'm certainly keeping an eye out for anything high end from Apple that's for sure. But at the same time, while it does win big time in the same class it is competing in, in some of the tests I saw it also lost against certain mid-range AMD CPUs. That's why I'm saying it is difficult to fully conclude where we go from here. I think we still need more data.


All I say about that is: This is the first chip of this family. It cannot be expected to be the ultimate killer.
No, it surely does not magically beat all x86 chips out there - but what it does is being equal with my 8 year old desktop system on GZDoom, which still got a competitive CPU, with a passively cooled SoC, essentially meaning an entry level chipset with integrated GPU. If it manages that, we can surely expect a lot more once the platform matures and new avenues of improving performance are found, especially if others start competing with Apple on this turf. This was merely the first shot in the upcoming CPU war and it was a direct hit right into the center of x86's stronghold.

I guess we'll see how Intel will play it - but long term I have no illusions that x86 may come out the victor in this game - it's far too old and crusty for that.

Rachael wrote:That is interesting.

Well - apparently the M1 Macs still have Boot Camp. So if you get sick of Mac OS ... there's still always an alternative. ;)

Though - to be quite frank, I expect that drivers will be far better developed on Linux at this point than Windows for ARM, but that is sure to change in the future if Microsoft's ARM Windows offerings can at any point compete with Apple's.


I wouldn't count on Microsoft here - but since Windows for ARM is not locked down to these, there's a very good chance of other manufacturers betting on ARM as well. Only then we'll really see how this thing will play out. Change will come, that's for sure, though. We now have proof that ARM is good enough for desktop work.

Rachael wrote:There's a misconception that there's no hardware acceleration other than Direct3D for Windows ARM at this point - which from what I have seen simply isn't true. What's really missing is actual driver support. But at the OS level everything is nearly identical to x64, other than having an emulation subsystem to support x86/x64 compiled programs.

As far as Vulkan goes - unlike with OpenGL, Windows does not actually provide the backend for that. The GPU driver does, directly. I'm sure to remain standards compliant the GPU's Vulkan dll has to call up ICD's like OpenGL does - but Microsoft provides no Vulkan support at all, whatsoever - neutered or otherwise.


Obviously the last work hasn't been spoken here - but I'd expect two developments here:
1. Turning OpenGL into a pure wrapper API.
2. Overall less direct reliance on native APIs.

I'll openly say that once I find the time to do it, I'll consider migrating GZDoom to some low level wrapper engine to decouple myself from direct interaction with the APIs and streamline the backend. I do not think that native Vulkan support is the way to go - the entire API is far too fragile and hostile for me - better offload the work to people who feel more comfortable with this kind of work. Getting D3D and Metal support through one of these would far outweigh the drawback of adding in an external dependency.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby _mental_ » Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:45 am

Rachael wrote:Well - apparently the M1 Macs still have Boot Camp.

Boot Camp requires a Mac with an Intel processor.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Graf Zahl » Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:52 am

I've read that someone managed to get Windows for ARM working on the M1, no idea how they did it, though.
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Rachael » Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:59 am

Graf Zahl wrote:I've read that someone managed to get Windows for ARM working on the M1, no idea how they did it, though.

Indeed.

This guy, actually: (be aware this guy is absolutely obsessed with promotional "plugs" - which does appear in this video)
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Re: [g4.6pre-65-g6701cd284] Freezes on Apple Silicon (M1 SoC

Postby Warrex » Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:05 am

dpJudas wrote:Keep in mind that while the M1 doesn't use a fan in the mac mini and mac book air, it does use one in the mac book pro.


The Mac Mini 2020 has a fan. The Mac Mini and the MacBook Pro don't thermal throttle while the MacBook Air does (https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/17/215 ... -m1-review).
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