[Not a bug] 4.4.2 only usable up to 96 khz ?

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4.4.2 only usable up to 96 khz ?

Postby eviltechno » Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:39 am

After updating from gzdoom 4.3.3 I have laggy gameplay and sound unless I drop my sound settings to 96000 hz . As soon as i use something in the 17640 - 384000 range the problems come back. Kinda like the doom 2016 version which only runs its music poperly when using 48000 hz in windows 10 (just worse)

Didn't happen in other game I tried since I have this creative soundblaster card.
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Re: 4.4.2 only usable up to 96 khz ?

Postby _mental_ » Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:50 am

The first thing to try is to replace openal32.dll inside GZDoom 4.4.2 folder with the same file from 4.3.3.
GZDoom 4.4.2 uses OpenAL Soft 1.20.1 while GZDoom 4.3.3 was shipped with 1.19.1.
Also, check the same thing with GZDoom 4.5.0 which released with OpenAL Soft 1.20.1 too.
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Re: 4.4.2 only usable up to 96 khz ?

Postby Chris » Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:15 am

eviltechno wrote:After updating from gzdoom 4.3.3 I have laggy gameplay and sound unless I drop my sound settings to 96000 hz . As soon as i use something in the 17640 - 384000 range the problems come back.

96khz (let alone higher) is absolute overkill for playback. You gain nothing audible over 48khz (except maybe intermodulation aliasing noise, and poorer/noisier signal reconstruction), and are requiring the audio mixer to process many times more samples for no improvement.

What's likely happening is, if you have headphones it'll try to auto-enable HRTF to give full 3D audio. With the older version, it fails to enable HRTF since it only works with 44.1khz and 48khz by default, so you get plain old simple stereo mixing instead. With the newer version, HRTF gets auto-resampled when necessary, so it works regardless of the device output rate and would then be enabled with headphones. Because of the way it works, though, HRTF processing has an exponential cost increase with the sample rate (it needs to do n times as much work per-sample for n times as many samples, per sound source). So 96khz has 4x the CPU cost over 48khz (actually a bit more, but as a rough baseline multiple), 192khz has 16x the CPU cost over 48khz, and 384khz has 64x the CPU cost over 48khz, for each sound, for no audible benefit.

If you're really set on using such high sample rates, you can turn HRTF off under the advanced sound options in the full options menu. But I would strongly suggest configuring your audio device to 48khz instead.
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Re: 4.4.2 only usable up to 96 khz ?

Postby eviltechno » Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:04 am

@_mental
Yes that worked. Thank you

@chris
I know most settings of the soundblasterx g6 are useless as I don't have the sources for it. 32bit is completly useless, but i can definately hear an improvent on 96khz vs 48khz (both@24bit) . My G1 alteady had a very good sound on 96khz (max) and the G6 sounds much better. (I used 196 khz @ 24 bit mostly) but my headphones are not the worst tho (beyerdynamics dt 990, 600 ohm) And about the HRTF stuff. I always used this det to ON. No problems on gzdoom 4.3.3 (even on 196 - 384 khz setting)
Last edited by eviltechno on Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4.4.2 only usable up to 96 khz ?

Postby Chris » Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:49 am

eviltechno wrote:@chris
I know most settings of the soundblasterx g6 are useless as I don't have the sources for it. 32bit is completly useless, but i can definately hear an improvent on 96khz vs 48khz (both@24bit) .

You're almost assuredly not hearing anything above 20khz, which a 48khz sample rate can handle just fine on any halfway decent audio device made this millennium. If you're hearing anything, it's most likely noise from hardware not designed to properly handle the expanded frequency range. Given equal quality construction, expanding the frequency range coverage will negatively impact the whole range because these things don't come free, and trying to play inaudibly high frequencies on speakers not properly designed for them will create audible distortion. This distortion/noise can easily be interpreted as extra texture or detail in the sound, giving the impression of "better" (much like how low quality resampling adds aliasing distortion, that people tend to interpret as making the sound "sharper" and "clearer" when it's really just errant high frequency noise).

If you like this extra noise, I'm not one to stop you. Enjoyment of audio is subjective after all, and everyone's tastes varies. But it's still a good idea to know what it actually is you're hearing, so you can make a more informed cost:benefit analysis with what your actual goal is.

eviltechno wrote:And about the HRTF stuff. I always used this det to ON. No problems on gzdoom 4.3.3 (even on 196 - 384 khz setting)

As mentioned, HRTF only works with 44.1khz and 48khz on older versions. If the device is using anything else, you get plain stereo mixing instead. With newer versions, HRTF will work, but at a significant cost: 192khz being at least 16x more costly per sound source than 48khz, and 384khz being 64x more costly. With plain stereo mixing, not only is it much simpler to start with, but 192khz is only 4x more costly per sound source than 48khz, and 384khz is 8x.
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Re: 4.4.2 only usable up to 96 khz ?

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:10 am

Chris wrote:This distortion/noise can easily be interpreted as extra texture or detail in the sound, giving the impression of "better" (much like how low quality resampling adds aliasing distortion, that people tend to interpret as making the sound "sharper" and "clearer" when it's really just errant high frequency noise).


We got ample proof of that with Raze and Duke Nukem where several people considered the noise from poor upmixing as "making the sound better" when using an uninterpolated scaler.
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Re: 4.4.2 only usable up to 96 khz ?

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:00 pm

Chris wrote:As mentioned, HRTF only works with 44.1khz and 48khz on older versions. If the device is using anything else, you get plain stereo mixing instead.


With that in mind, wouldn't that mean that OP was comparing stereo 96 kHz with HRTF 96 kHz and considering it better?
Well, it's two totally different sound mixes then!

I think I'll close this reoprt as there's nothing on my side to do here.
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Re: 4.4.2 only usable up to 96 khz ?

Postby eviltechno » Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:32 pm

Pretty sure HRTF worked. At least it sounds much more real than just stereo. Can't imagine it was not working. Maybe there was some automated setting which just changed my samplerate down to 44.1 khz (?)


edit:

I did some quick ON and OFF tests. I think its not working on 192 Khz, but up to 96 khz HRTF works.. It had to work on this setting as I played hundrets of hours on it with my creative G1 , which I used on its full 96 khz only.

Thanks for the replies so far. It's not too easy getting info on that stuff. That being said, when I was talking about better quality I only had youtube and music in mind, not doom with its mostly old soundfiles. Just don't see why I need to change samplingrate down for one specific game, which I ususally never have to touch it. If i don't change my mind about the settings I guess i just have to stick to the 4.33 openal32.dll
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Re: 4.4.2 only usable up to 96 khz ?

Postby Chris » Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:59 am

eviltechno wrote:Pretty sure HRTF worked. At least it sounds much more real than just stereo. Can't imagine it was not working. Maybe there was some automated setting which just changed my samplerate down to 44.1 khz (?)

It was probably the BS2B crossfeed filter, then. If it attempts to use HRTF but failed to initialize it, because of an incompatible sample rate or whatever, it can use a BS2B filter as a fallback, which takes a plain stereo mix and applies a simple crossfeed filter to the L/R channels (to at least reduce listening fatigue or discomfort from the super-stereo effect, caused by non-binaural sound on headphones). Since HRTF will work on newer versions, you get it as requested, rather than a cheap not-really-HRTF fallback.

eviltechno wrote:That being said, when I was talking about better quality I only had youtube and music in mind, not doom with its mostly old soundfiles. Just don't see why I need to change samplingrate down for one specific game, which I ususally never have to touch it.

Same thing applies regardless of the sound source. Using super-high rates with hardware not designed to clear out ultrasonic frequencies can cause noise and distortion in the audible frequencies. At worst, reducing the sample rate to 48khz will result in no audible difference, but more likely it will improve fidelity and reduce overall CPU load (even considering plain output, having to process 2x, 4x, or 8x as many samples per second requires more CPU time and memory bandwidth; HRTF just exacerbates this by having a non-linear CPU increase).

eviltechno wrote:If i don't change my mind about the settings I guess i just have to stick to the 4.33 openal32.dll

There are other options if you really want super-high sampling rates. You weren't getting it before, so you can turn HRTF off to reduce the CPU load and avoid the lag.
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