GetLogicalProcessorInformation

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Rachael
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Re: GetLogicalProcessorInformation

Post by Rachael »

I was trying to be a bit more forward thinking. Yes, the Pi is still very young, but as far as I know Linux has been in existence for ARM architectures longer than the Pi has (well, obviously, or Android would not be a thing).

The thing is, Windows 7 is not even going to last another 5 years. It's doomed to follow the path of XP. Windows 8 will last a bit longer than that, but not by much.

Support for these OS's will likely last beyond the 5 year limit, but even that is not going to be much, itself.

It's just a fact of reality, unfortunately, Microsoft (and usually, everyone else right along with them) just move on. Windows is ever evolving (and multiple releases of Windows 10 prove that Windows is still going to be updated at a core level despite possibly never changing its name) and technology right along with it. You might as well make the painful investment at least once so you can get by for a few years, than complain about something not working on the old dinosaur that's already older than most of the kids you see at the local school down the street. :P
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leileilol
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Re: GetLogicalProcessorInformation

Post by leileilol »

Well... with the Pi you get GCC / Clang which doesn't have the Microsoft-submissive library OS-version stranglehold (which could be avoided there with not using VS to compile public builds).

but also with the Pi (3) you get pretty much an approximate performance to a Pentium 166MHz (or worse if you don't forget to force surface output mode) and no juice for any of those actor-abusing mods. The only good framerate you'll ever get is a 30fps in 320x200 on pause.


With the arguments in this thread, a 1993 game's source port requiring Windows 10 is likely. :shrug:
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Rachael
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Re: GetLogicalProcessorInformation

Post by Rachael »

Well - no matter what - it all just boils down to one thing: Get a new bloody computer. A 6-7 year old one will not cost you much and it can still run some of the older or less detailed GZDoom mods rather decently.

Choosing not to support old OS's is a choice not just by the tooling that the development teams use, but also a more conscious choice on Microsoft's part. This is probably not going to be a popular statement - but using an OS that is no longer supported is almost the equivalent of digital suicide. Everything that gets fixed in the more recent versions essentially becomes a zero-day exploit on the older ones. A script kiddie with a decent collection of tools could probably completely take over a fully patched (and unfirewalled) Win98 system within a half an hour. Internet advertising is a known cesspool of zero-day exploits and malware distribution, up to and including ransomware that actually locks files on your system and holds them hostage until you pay for it. That's not to say it never happens on newer systems - but you can bet your sweets that if an advertiser gets hacked every system that's still vulnerable to the exploits used will be compromised just by visiting a site.

Is your arguments for using such a dated OS really worth this kind of vulnerability? In a way, I do kind of see OS vendors doing you a favor when they say that they will no longer support old OS's. And don't tell me this is Microsoft-exclusive - Linux distros do it too, and so does Apple.
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Graf Zahl
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Re: GetLogicalProcessorInformation

Post by Graf Zahl »

leileilol wrote:Well... with the Pi you get GCC / Clang which doesn't have the Microsoft-submissive library OS-version stranglehold (which could be avoided there with not using VS to compile public builds).
What a load of bullshit!

I think you have to get a grip on reality. Normal people do not use Windows 98 anymore. Supporting it is not free, to ensure it works some constant testing is required. Are you willing to do it? I sure am not. And the whole thing will become impossible at the latest, once I decide to convert the engine to Unicode. You cannot do Windows text input with Unicode on ANSI-mode Windows because everything gets converted before you see it. And that's definitely on the long-term roadmap.

Furthermore, it's not just the executable itself but also the libraries it uses. You have to accept that most software developers have no interest in targeting a platform that is almost 20 years old and has vanished from the market at large more than 10 years ago. The professional software I make doesn't even target XP anymore because nobody needs it. GZDoom as it is today targets mainstream computers of today. That means taking advantage of modern hardware, like using multithreading. That means dumping 'fast and optimized' assembly when that assembly is actually SLOWER than the C code on modern systems. That means running the playsim in a scripting VM to add flexibility, because on current hardware the speed impact of that is negligible.
But all these design decisions will come bite you in the ass on a 10+ year old computer, you may actually notice that the current release is SLOWER than last year's because it was optimized for a different type of system.

Do I need to go on?
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leileilol
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Re: GetLogicalProcessorInformation

Post by leileilol »

Graf Zahl wrote:Normal people do not use Windows 98 anymore.
One could say that about playing Doom (as in not Doom 2016) in general
Graf Zahl wrote:And the whole thing will become impossible at the latest, once I decide to convert the engine to Unicode. You cannot do Windows text input with Unicode on ANSI-mode Windows because everything gets converted before you see it. And that's definitely on the long-term roadmap.
Unicows/Opencows is a thing.
Graf Zahl wrote:GZDoom as it is today targets mainstream computers of today. That means taking advantage of modern hardware, like using multithreading.
Who said anything about GZDoom? The OP is addressing (the then-living) Zdoom - the one with the software span drivers and all with a 19 year streak of working on Win98. Removing the ASM out of that one would be performance murder.
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Rachael
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Re: GetLogicalProcessorInformation

Post by Rachael »

I'll put it this way:

If someone else is willing to maintain it - fine.

Otherwise - as of ZDoom's final commit, and consequently GZDoom, they're already gone. At this point you will need a fork that is able to downstream GZDoom and reverts the renderer to its previous state.
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Graf Zahl
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Re: GetLogicalProcessorInformation

Post by Graf Zahl »

leileilol wrote:
Graf Zahl wrote:Normal people do not use Windows 98 anymore.
One could say that about playing Doom (as in not Doom 2016) in general
I do not play Doom.exe or Boom. I play with GZDoom which has moved on with the times.
Graf Zahl wrote:And the whole thing will become impossible at the latest, once I decide to convert the engine to Unicode. You cannot do Windows text input with Unicode on ANSI-mode Windows because everything gets converted before you see it. And that's definitely on the long-term roadmap.
Unicows/Opencows is a thing.
Talk about living in the past. That stuff has been unmaintained for 10+ years. Which is a clear indicator that nobody has any use for it anymore.
Graf Zahl wrote:GZDoom as it is today targets mainstream computers of today. That means taking advantage of modern hardware, like using multithreading.
Who said anything about GZDoom? The OP is addressing (the then-living) Zdoom - the one with the software span drivers and all with a 19 year streak of working on Win98. Removing the ASM out of that one would be performance murder.[/quote]

Yeah, the ASM is gone, because it's detrimental to performance on modern computers. And it won't come back. You cannot expect that today's developers are accpeting of compromising their software to run on a 19 year old dinosaur system only being used by a hopeless few who seem stuck in the past.
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Borg
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Re: GetLogicalProcessorInformation

Post by Borg »

Graf Zahl: grow up? haha.. im old.. and getting only older..
Im happy with my main rig, running Win2003.. Its fast... I mean really fast..
When cache got hot, everything start nearly instantly.. I grow
inpatient when something happens longer that 300ms....
So no thanks, I dont need new HW for now.. and im 100% sure I dont need
new fancy OS like Win7 or up... When the time will come, I will have
to make a choice once again...
As for supporting old OS.. well, its true its hard and costly, but only
when you are in future.. trying to support past.. I compile all my stuff
for Win2000 compatibility and I have no problems running it from Win2000
to Win10 so far... So, whats the issue actually? I remind you, we are all speaking
about good old DOOM ;)
Anyway, its just my opinion... im supprised that someone replied to the topic
anyway after my last post... Im just scanning the world for old ones...
But seems I am all alone, close to extinction...

Eruanna: Linux as desktop OS is out of question for now...
Habbits die hard... I tried Pi and im not impressed with Rasbian too :)
But Pi as desktop.. way too underpowered... My current rig isnt that bad I think:
i7 760, 8GB RAM, ATI HD 6850.. hope it will work for loooong time...

leileilol: greetings.. ;)

Okey, its closed topic.. period.. I got the point...
Post only if you doesnt have negative emotional charge on you ;)
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Rachael
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Re: GetLogicalProcessorInformation

Post by Rachael »

Borg wrote:Okey, its closed topic.. period..
I agree.
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Graf Zahl
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Re: GetLogicalProcessorInformation

Post by Graf Zahl »

Borg wrote:Graf Zahl: grow up? haha.. im old.. and getting only older..
Im happy with my main rig, running Win2003.. Its fast... I mean really fast..
When cache got hot, everything start nearly instantly.. I grow
inpatient when something happens longer that 300ms....
So no thanks, I dont need new HW for now.. and im 100% sure I dont need
new fancy OS like Win7 or up... When the time will come, I will have
to make a choice once again...
So, instead of actually investing in YOUR computer, you ask OTHERS to invest more work into THEIR software so that it can run on YOUR computer?
Thanks, but I'll pass. People like you is what drives software costs up.
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Rachael
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Re: GetLogicalProcessorInformation

Post by Rachael »

I locked this thread for a reason.
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Graf Zahl
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Re: GetLogicalProcessorInformation

Post by Graf Zahl »

That particular statement had to be made because it's something people like Borg do not realize when proudly sticking to their outdated systems.
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Rachael
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Re: GetLogicalProcessorInformation

Post by Rachael »

You and I are never going to convince him otherwise.
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