[Don't use VMWare then] No mouse in ZDoom w/VMWare

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Postby HotWax » Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:49 am

I'm not one to tell people how to use their computers, but I do question the validity of looking for "bugs" in a slow, incompatible, inaccurate, and buggy emulation of the operating system ZDoom supports. Since any problems that arise are likely to be due to the emulation and not ZDoom itself, how does reporting these "bugs" help Randy?
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Postby Hirogen2 » Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:50 am

Yes, this is probably a waste of time. <filler...>
HotWax wrote:I'm not one to tell people how to use their computers, but I do question the validity of looking for "bugs" in a slow, incompatible, inaccurate, and buggy emulation of the operating system ZDoom supports.

Sounds like you're describing Windows itself. :)
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Postby HotWax » Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:55 am

Hirogen2 wrote:Yes, this is probably a waste of time. <filler...>
HotWax wrote:I'm not one to tell people how to use their computers, but I do question the validity of looking for "bugs" in a slow, incompatible, inaccurate, and buggy emulation of the operating system ZDoom supports.

Sounds like you're describing Windows itself. :)


hehehe. Okay, I *must* give kudos for that comeback. Very nice. *Insert applause here*

Now let me rephrase:

"...I do question the validity of looking for "bugs" in a slow, incompatible, inaccurate, and buggy emulation of the slow, incompatible, inaccurate, and buggy operating system ZDoom supports."

Better?
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Postby Hirogen2 » Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:03 am

Same.
Though I am going to analyze that strange behavior myself then ^_^ if I like to :P
It just can't be that Win32 Mouse GDI calls yield different results on different uh..."computers".
To fast summarize: Mouse (GDI not D3D) works in: Windows itself Win98, ZDoom on Win98, Windows itself VM, but not ZDoom VM...

Slow: You must second (what the word???) that Windows (at least 98!) is slower than a Linux :)
Incompatible: Just as incompatible as any other OS. Apparently, Wine handles a piece of this, so the Win32 PE format is the most compatible ^_^ it's supported by 2 OSes (Win and uh Wine)... anybody know more?
Inaccurate: got an example? I do not have one for either OS.
Buggy: 100+ points for Windows :P really heh. But c'mon, Windows is like WinDEU32 ("v5.99b1"). It has bugs, but they can be circumvented; not always thu.
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Postby HotWax » Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:22 am

Hirogen2 wrote:Slow: You must second (what the word???) that Windows (at least 98!) is slower than a Linux :)


I was referring to its speed of emulation. Obviously, something designed to be run in Windows will run the fastest in Windows. If the emulation is very good, the speed may be matched. Rarely would it ever be exceeded. Even if you managed to find a setup where Windows emulation was faster than the real thing, the fact still remains that an implementation designed specifically for Linux would still be faster.

I don't question that Linux is faster. The simple fact that the OS is non-graphical and doesn't have the useless extras that Windows comes with would accomplish that. However, since 90% of programs (particularly games) are incompatible (natively) with Linux, I fail to see how that's much of an incentive to use it.

Incompatible: Just as incompatible as any other OS. Apparently, Wine handles a piece of this, so the Win32 PE format is the most compatible ^_^ it's supported by 2 OSes (Win and uh Wine)... anybody know more?


Again, I was not referring to Linux, but to your emulation of Windows. Since it doesn't support 100% of the programs, devices, etc that Windows does, it is less compatible than a "pure" Windows installation.

Inaccurate: got an example? I do not have one for either OS.


Any emulation is unlikely to be 100% accurate, and as Windows changes, the emulation will have to struggle to keep up. Hence my use of the term.

Buggy: 100+ points for Windows :P really heh. But c'mon, Windows is like WinDEU32 ("v5.99b1"). It has bugs, but they can be circumvented; not always thu.


With this I was going purely off of what has already been stated in this thread. No DirectX support? Known issues with the hardware (namely the, uh.... mouse)? Sounds buggy to me.

I also fail to see how you're so surprised that DirectX calls don't work when DirectX isn't present. That would seem to be self-evident. The mouse in Windows is not DirectX dependent, the mouse calls in ZDoom are. Is this concept so hard to grasp?
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Postby randi » Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:00 pm

Every OS has bugs, even Linux. That doesn't change the fact that VMware's DirectX support is incomplete. To make ZDoom uses old-fashioned Win32 mouse calls instead of DirectInput, set in_mouse to 1.
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Postby HotWax » Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:15 pm

Yes, and anywho my point was that reporting bugs that are caused by VMWare, or your faulty hardware, or your little brother, or anything other than ZDoom itself, is completely non-helpful. That is all.
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Postby Hirogen2 » Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:58 am

randy wrote:Every OS has bugs, even Linux. That doesn't change the fact that VMware's DirectX support is incomplete. To make ZDoom uses old-fashioned Win32 mouse calls instead of DirectInput, set in_mouse to 1.
Yes, yes, mouse input via D3D is like there is no mouse, and using in_mouse makes the player turn a bit left on every mouse event.

Hotwax: Wine is less of an emulation as VMware
The speed Linux gains can be lost in the emulation, like, a buffer. :)
Right, the emulated machine IS slower (ZDoom/Win: ~250fps, /VM: 150fps), but with today's fast processors... I can't *see* (biologically) any difference between 250 and 150 :)

Someone could close this topic then?
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Postby randi » Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:58 am

So VMware doesn't quite move the mouse to the right location when the Win32 calls are used to move it. Since it works on a real Windows machines, that would make it a VMware bug.

BTW, Direct3D and DirectInput are not the same thing, although both fall under the category of "DirectX."
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Postby HotWax » Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:45 am

Hehe, every time I see him mention Doom using "D3D", I have to chuckle. "Input via D3D." Hehehehehehe.
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Postby Hirogen2 » Sat Sep 13, 2003 10:42 am

I encountered the same issue in Heretic2, so this is DEFINITELY not a Zdoom
bug.
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Postby Cyb » Sat Sep 13, 2003 11:28 am

gasp
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