[Fixed] Fireballs going through walls.

Bugs that have been investigated and resolved somehow.

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Postby Anonymous » Tue Dec 09, 2003 1:47 pm

Come on people. Do some research. I have done numerous tests with this and I still come out to the same results. I have been making DOOM levels for probably 8 - 10 years. I know what I'm talking about.

Go into a Doom level editor. I was using DoomCAD 5.1 at the time. Put two rooms side by side, make them touch, but make the walls non-transparent, impassible, solid, ect... Put a monster on one side, and you on the other. Play it in regular Doom, and then in ZDoom. In regular Doom, the monster can NOT see you, can NOT shoot you, and you can NOT shoot it. The wall is simply an impassible solid wall.
Then play it in ZDoom, and don't be suprised if you have fireballs coming through the wall from the monster on the other side. Try it out.

Any more doubts and I will make a test level that you can try for yourself.
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Postby HotWax » Tue Dec 09, 2003 1:49 pm

Okay, yeah, we're all wrong and you're right. And Randy's wrong too.

Will you make sure to include the fruity version of Doom you're testing with too?
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Postby Anonymous » Tue Dec 09, 2003 1:59 pm

Ok, I'm not trying downcast everyone, it's just that it doesn't matter how much you tell me it's not like that, it's still like that.

Just to clear things up, here is a quick level that I made. First try it in normal Doom, either DOS or Doom95. Then play it in ZDoom. You will notice that there is a difference. I just tried both less than a minute ago.

I'm not picking fights, I'm just looking for answers.
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Postby Lexus Alyus » Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:30 pm

Hay, I got something to tell you, IT'S LIKE THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay, I did what you said, I tested your level in Zdoom:

The Imps saw me and fired through the wall... I could fire projectiles through the wall but I couldn't fire any hitscan weapons through the wall.

In Doom2 v1.9:

Okay, so the imps didn't see me, so I fired a rocket in their general direction. Guess what happened? The rocket flew through the wall and eradicated the imps... So, I decided to clip and I actually got the imps to fire through the wall, but they couldnt fire while I was on the other side (I'm guessing that they can't see me...).

Conclusion:

Yes, the imps dont' see me in Doom, but, projectiles still travel through walls. That's the only different, so, your point is?

Now, here is the interesting thing, why on earth would you want to do this anyway? I've been making levels for a while and i've never had to do this... so, why do YOU have to do this? if you don't want them to see you, JUST BUILD TWO SEPERATE SECTORS THAT AREN'T CONNECTED AND STOP NITPICKING!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow, a little shouting does the whole world good :-D.

:twisted:

Sorry for being a bastard, but it's true... I am a bastard!
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Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Dec 09, 2003 3:29 pm

Why? To create traps, for example. I once saw a level with a room separated by a two sided wall without the 2s flag. In that room was a switch and a cacodemon (which of course only attacked when you entered the room. So monsters being able to see through these walls is definitely an incompatibility (and an easily fixable one.)
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Postby Enjay » Tue Dec 09, 2003 3:46 pm

I'm surprised by this one too. The 2 sided line does have 2 sides, but is not flagged as 2 sided. That seems to be enough for the imps not to see you in doom2.exe. Even if you wake them, they just pace around and do not attack.

It's certainly something I didn't know. Although, to be fair, I don't think I have ever intentionally not flagged a 2S line as 2 sided. Hmmm, years ago, I made a map where the imps inside a cage would just ignore me until I actually went into the cage. Then if I left again, they would just pace around but not attack through the cage bars. I know I didn't build a reject for it - sounds like that mystery is solved.

Interestingly, this Zdoom behaviour goes back at least to ver 1.22, so it's obviously bothered a lot of people down through the years. :P
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Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Dec 09, 2003 3:59 pm

There are a few old levels which use 2-sided lines without the flag. For some odd reasons Doom.exe never checked for actual 2-sidedness but only the flag (I have no idea why but I think it has to do with the evolution of the map format.)

In one of those old maps I noticed that you could shoot with hitscan weapons through it. This was caused by the new hitscan trace code which did the 'correct' check for actual two-sidedness. This bug has been fixed a few versions ago.
The different behavior regarding sight checks in ZDoom comes from the fact that ZDoom uses Hexen's sight checking code which checks the actual back sector instead of the flag for two-sidedness. Since these odd constructions seem to be limited to really old Doom levels (almost exclusively from 1994) I think it should work that way in ZDoom, too.
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Postby HotWax » Tue Dec 09, 2003 6:05 pm

I'm going to say it again:

HotWax wrote:I think something on the order of:

"ERROR: The author of this map deserves a bleach enema."

would be in order.


Hey.. I used "order" twice in there. Oh well, DORD.
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Postby Ultraviolet » Tue Dec 09, 2003 6:57 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:evolution of the map format
Yup. No bug here.
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Postby Anonymous » Tue Dec 09, 2003 10:33 pm

My main reason for bringing this up is that as some of you noticed, the monsters behavior in this given situation is different in ZDoom than it is in Doom 2 v1.9, and therefore, some levels don't work the same way in regular Doom as they do in ZDoom. You can tell me to just make my levels different, and call me names all you want and that I'm dumb for bringing this up (whatever, if you're just here to name call, I guess that's your preference), but the simple fact remains, there is a difference in the behavior in the two versions of Doom, and I would consider Id's original Doom the standard.
I felt it's something that needs to be fixed, so I brought it to everyone's attention. Do with it what you will.
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Postby Ultraviolet » Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:06 am

Hahaha. Ask any source port author about all the redundant, weird, crazy, buggy, or otherwise WRONG shit they've taken out of the Doom source and replaced with cleaner, better code. As was described, the original Doom didn't do the proper checking for line of sight in cases like this, and ZDoom does, therefore Doom was wrong. Your god is dead and none of us seem to care.

And nobody called you any names. Assface. :P
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Postby Enjay » Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:04 am

I think sandmann999 has a point. He has identified a difference between the way Doom and Zdoom handle a certain type of mapping situation. This difference would affect how certain maps played.

Now, as I said, it was a quirk of the Doom engine that I did not know about, so apart from anything else, I'm grateful to him for pointing out something I didn't know. It seems the quirk is a fairly unknown one, and therefore unlikely to cause many problems by it not being there in Zdoom because not many people will have used it. However, that doesn't make sandmann999 wrong to point it out. We've all raised issues in the past that are minor and which other people may have looked at and thought "what's the point".

Ultimately, whether any change is made as a result of this is Randy's call, but at least the issue is now known about.
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Postby Graf Zahl » Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:17 am

For correctly constructed maps this isn't an issue. AFAIK there is no map for ZDoom that requires monsters being able to see through these walls. I know there is at least one vanilla map (Heptic) that requires a monster not being able to see through such a wall so the solution should be obvious, don't you all agree?
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Postby randi » Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:34 pm

Fixed.
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Postby Xaser » Fri Jan 09, 2004 6:32 pm

sandmann999 wrote:
Xaser wrote:Use Doom Builder for all your level editing needs.


Wow...this program rocks. :) Thanks.


Hey, my forum advertising actually did some good! Heh, never saw that one coming.
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