Doom Eternal reveal thread.

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Re: Doom Eternal reveal thread.

Postby hardcore_gamer » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:10 am

The thing about level design in a modern game is that it's nothing like what it used to be. When you guys keep saying "just give us the tools!" you seem to think that levels are still being made using old school brush editing. That isn't how things are made anymore. Level design for modern games now often involves many different pieces of software, with large pieces of the game world being modeled in a 3D modeling app and then imported into some other program where more work is done. The days of firing up Radiant or some other similar brush based editor are gone. For all we know they don't even have any tool to give us because they might not even (and probably aren't) just using a single level editor/program to make levels.
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Re: Doom Eternal reveal thread.

Postby NeuralStunner » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:15 am

I think the community might be getting too clouded by what we've had before. Sure, Snapmap is a huge step backwards from the kind of editing tools we have now, but keep in mind the thousands of players who have never had any kind of mapping tool for a game like this. In particular, for console FPSs. There's a small handful of games like TimeSplitters 2/3 (which are prefab-based tools as well). Making levels in-game, sharing them across official services and playing them on any other port are a huge deal.*

Yes, I'm saying "be happy with what you got," but that doesn't mean you can't ask for more and better. Still, there's a better way to do that than say "this is horseshit." This level of vitriol is doing nobody any good - The older kid throwing a tantrum because he got the same toy as his little brother, when they were meant to play together. Why's it so hard to be positive about things any more? :shrug:


* Contrast Super Mario Maker for 3DS. Lacks many of the components and features of the Wii version, most notabl4e being any kind of online sharing. (You just get the typical local features - Why bother having an online friends system?) And of course, no cross-play at all. It seems 90% pointless.
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Re: Doom Eternal reveal thread.

Postby Trance » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:20 am

hardcore_gamer wrote:The thing about level design in a modern game is that it's nothing like what it used to be. When you guys keep saying "just give us the tools!" you seem to think that levels are still being made using old school brush editing. That isn't how things are made anymore. Level design for modern games now often involves many different pieces of software, with large pieces of the game world being modeled in a 3D modeling app and then imported into some other program where more work is done. The days of firing up Radiant or some other similar brush based editor are gone. For all we know they don't even have any tool to give us because they might not even (and probably aren't) just using a single level editor/program to make levels.

I have to wonder if my posts are even being read properly. Y'all need to stop assuming "us guys" are idiots that have no idea what's involved.
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Re: Doom Eternal reveal thread.

Postby InsanityBringer » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:02 am

The complexity of the tools probably isn't too much of a problem, random guys on the net are able to tame the toolsets for things like UE4 to make great looking content, though it definitely isn't an easy skillset to learn and if you aren't quite there you just get something like all those awful "Doom in UE4" things or my personal favorite, a horrible "Unreal in UE4" thing. But if the game's popular enough, perhaps folk will rise up and do something. Rage was complicated as balls and it wasn't near as hype so it's no surprise anyone wanted to try to handle that complexity.

What I do think, however, is the most concerning thing is baking levels. There's a lot of precalculated shit. a fuckton of it, to the point where compiling it on a home PC might be infeasible, at least according to statements by id guys I believe. Of course, I'm fairly certain the same things were said about quake, so I dunno.
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Re: Doom Eternal reveal thread.

Postby Gorman Frebmane » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:03 am

DE4D when?
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Re: Doom Eternal reveal thread.

Postby Caligari87 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:13 am

I have to wonder if anyone in their right mind actually thinks id "gave us" mod tools in the first place. "Oh classic Doom came with mod support! We need real mod tools! id is being backward by not giving us mod tool!"

Every mod tool you've ever used has been community-built. The only things id Software ever did for modding classic Doom was A) use a simple data format, and B) opensource the engine four years after the game was released.

Y'know what game they did release mod tools for? Doom 3. And the community successfully produced... the duct tape mod and The Dark Project?

8-)
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Re: Doom Eternal reveal thread.

Postby NeuralStunner » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:18 am

I was going to bring that up as well, but I guess it got lost between rewrites. It's a good point, too.

Trance wrote:I have to wonder if my posts are even being read properly. Y'all need to stop assuming "us guys" are idiots that have no idea what's involved.
On the inverse, maybe be careful throwing "y'all" around. ;)
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Re: Doom Eternal reveal thread.

Postby InsanityBringer » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:44 am

sure, doom had no modding tools, but Quake definitely was a change, with things like the QC compiler released fairly early on, the map compilers, as well as the QuakeEd source code (not of much use to most people directly though, given their use of NeXT development computers). Doom 3 shipped with these things, though as mentioned it wasn't the most active dev community on the planet. But how much of that is tool complexity vs. the game simply not being popular enough among the modding communities? There's a certain other famous FPS that got release in 2004 that had a very active modding community. Of course one could argue that hl2 was much less complex than doom 3 in ways...
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Re: Doom Eternal reveal thread.

Postby Trance » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:45 am

Caligari87 wrote:"Oh classic Doom came with mod support! We need real mod tools! id is being backward by not giving us mod tool!"

I'd like to highlight this little nugget for just a minute, to showcase the source of my frustration with this discussion. Nowhere in my posts did I even hint at sharing the mindset being made fun of here. Representing someone else's position as a caricature, condescendingly trying to "educate" them like they're a 15-year-old, and treating a feature someone desires of a commercial product being put out by a professional game studio like it's a post in the Feature Suggestions forum, are why there isn't going to be an amicable end to this discussion.

Can there just be, for once, an acceptance that someone wants something from a game that you don't want, and not yet another pointless dogpile? It probably won't save this one, which I'm sure I'll see later in the HoU. But for real, just chill and let things be sometimes.
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Re: Doom Eternal reveal thread.

Postby Apeirogon » Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:32 pm

Hmmm...

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Re: Doom Eternal reveal thread.

Postby phantombeta » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:30 pm

Trance wrote:
Caligari87 wrote:"Oh classic Doom came with mod support! We need real mod tools! id is being backward by not giving us mod tool!"

I'd like to highlight this little nugget for just a minute, to showcase the source of my frustration with this discussion. Nowhere in my posts did I even hint at sharing the mindset being made fun of here. Representing someone else's position as a caricature, condescendingly trying to "educate" them like they're a 15-year-old, and treating a feature someone desires of a commercial product being put out by a professional game studio like it's a post in the Feature Suggestions forum, are why there isn't going to be an amicable end to this discussion.

Can there just be, for once, an acceptance that someone wants something from a game that you don't want, and not yet another pointless dogpile? It probably won't save this one, which I'm sure I'll see later in the HoU. But for real, just chill and let things be sometimes.

I'm gonna highlight something Nash said earlier here.
Nash wrote:Let's be real, almost none of us have the required hardware for the editing workflow, nor the skill.

Let's focus on the hardware aspect and ignore skill, here. So, what hardware would you need?
Most likely, you'd need a very high-end CPU with a high core count, and at least 32 GB (or possibly even 64 GB) of RAM.
And that's not counting that DOOM16 uses megatextures, which means Doom Eternal most likely will, too. To render said megatextures you need an entire server farm. This kind of hardware is very much out of reach to even the most well-off modders.

While it would be cool to have some kind of advanced modding tool for Doom Eternal, it'd be very likely impossible for anyone to even run such a tool.
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Re: Doom Eternal reveal thread.

Postby RedoLane » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:14 pm

Okay okay, I think we should change to another topic related to the gameplay reveal.
For example..umm… stuff that I noticed which people didn't seem to mention yet:

-When the Doom Slayer enters Phobos, you can see Mars from the window, behind the BFG10k.
-Even though the Doom Slayer holds the Crucible in the end, that could be a different one that the Doom Slayer himself built, since It looks like it was made out of pure metal, and the handle is different. In my opinion, Samuel Hayden holds an Sword Crucible, while the Doom Slayer holds a Claymore Crucible. The reason is because the Doom Slayer was holding it with both hands, although we don't know if Samuel Hayden will use his with one hand or both hands. Moreover, The Marauder holds an Axe Crucible.
-D00t76 appears as an Invader....the 76 might be referring to Fallout 76(Damnit, Todd!)
-The Doom Hunter's head looks awfully similar to the Icon of Sin.
-The Pain Elemental's design looks awfully similar to the Cacodemon from Doom 64.
-While it wasn't really subtle, Lost Souls also got a new design.
-Ammo and Items like health potions designed were to be more loyal to their original designs.
-The operator with the red key looks like Mick Gordon, the composer of the game.
-There were at least 2 more extra lives located in the whole gameplay showcase.
-the in-building location in the first gameplay segment is a mall called Star Mall. it contains stores like:
UHGO, Turner Don, Jerry Juice, and Titan - Offplant construction(there's one that starts with LEO but the footage doesn't show the full name). it also has a little map with areas organized by colors.
-Other places outside the Star Mall are PARK, EU Banks National, Bailey & Sons, and Mixom.
-The new powerup in the second segment(with KB+M and more FOV) looks like a sphere, which is probably inspired by the different spheres in the classic games.
-There are more places in the second segment like: TVAN, another EU Banks National branch, and VORUS Technologies.
-There's also a monitor which says "SUBMIT TO THEM".
-When the Invasion happened, there was an "Last Life" written right to the demon icons on the top left corner. This could be an indication that the players who invade the campaign player are restricted to a few lives before they are gone. Maybe there's a limit to how many times you can invade a specific person, and then you'll have to invade someone else. Or maybe, you can choose how many times you can spawn in a person's campaign.
-The location we saw at Phobos is the entrance to the UAC's Primary Chamber on Phobos(alongside the Primary Chamber itself) as it says on the red key operator's monitor.
-The Doom Slayer might be trying to stop something inside the facility where the BFG10k is controlled. Since the demons are guarding the place, it may imply that they already took control of the BFG10k.
-Outside the Primary Chamber, you can see landscapes of Phobos in the background.

I might have missed a few stuff though!
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Re: Doom Eternal reveal thread.

Postby hardcore_gamer » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:25 pm

phantombeta wrote:
Nash wrote:Let's be real, almost none of us have the required hardware for the editing workflow, nor the skill.

Let's focus on the hardware aspect and ignore skill, here. So, what hardware would you need?
Most likely, you'd need a very high-end CPU with a high core count, and at least 32 GB (or possibly even 64 GB) of RAM.
And that's not counting that DOOM16 uses megatextures, which means Doom Eternal most likely will, too. To render said megatextures you need an entire server farm. This kind of hardware is very much out of reach to even the most well-off modders.

While it would be cool to have some kind of advanced modding tool for Doom Eternal, it'd be very likely impossible for anyone to even run such a tool.


This is a part of the point I was trying to make earlier. Level design has become so complicated compared to what it was in the past that normal people just can't do it anymore. Either they lack the skill needed to make highly detailed realistic levels (which would be 99% of all Doom level makers. Let's not pretend that mapping for classic doom isn't a million times easier), they simply don't know how to use all the different tools, or they simply lack the needed hardware. We are talking about a TINY niche.

And then there is also another thing people here are missing: Most people don't even care about mods. Take minecraft for example. It has TONS of mods and (or at least use to) millions of users. And yet, according to research somebody did about 70-80% of Minecraft players never even played mods. Mod users were a minority. People here like to forget that they are a minority. Most people don't give a damn about mods. So why would Id waste time making complex mod tools that most people won't even use? Just so that a handful of people can made mods (most of whom will be mediocre) that most people then won't play?
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Re: Doom Eternal reveal thread.

Postby Arctangent » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:53 pm

Trance wrote:I'd like to highlight this little nugget for just a minute ... and treating a feature someone desires of a commercial product being put out by a professional game studio like it's a post in the Feature Suggestions forum

I'll do that right back at you and point out that this is a complete non-detail because you don't get exactly what you want just because you're paying for it, and in fact, that attitude makes me worried about the people who work at the stores you frequent. Okay, sure, you've made it abundantly clear that you know it'd be a huge amount of time and effort for something you know a max of ten people are actually going to make anything notable in - but that just makes your insistence worse, especially combined with this, since you're really looking like you feel like you should be able to hold id hostage to get what you want just because you're throwing money at them, even after acknowledging that'd be a huge waste of time that could go towards other things.

Also, you're going to be very disappointed in the world if you think that age has anything to do with intelligence or wisdom.
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Re: Doom Eternal reveal thread.

Postby Trance » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:59 pm

What are you even doing? What is it that you think I believe about this situation?

I stated that I wanted to see a more fully-featured mapping tool in Doom Eternal, and you're busting out with "you don't get exactly what you want just because you're paying for it" and "you feel like you should be able to hold id hostage to get what you want"... painting me like a petulant spoiled child because.... why, exactly? Can you not deal with my position as it actually is?

Calm the fuck down and walk away. There is no need for you (or anyone else who's been guilty of doing this) to be going on the attack over someone's opinion. This is not healthy behavior.
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