Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby Rachael » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:36 am

To add to this - seeing negative comments does hurt no matter who you are. Some people can take it, others can't. Someone saying "this sux lolololz u sux lolololz im gonna go use DETH/DEU/WadAuthor/whatever its much better then ur shit lolololz" is going to have an effect on the developer, no matter who it is.

So yes - constructive criticism does need to be worded carefully. I've also noticed that when developers actually care about at least one person in the community, and that person is a fan of their work, they have much more motivation to continue. It may be that some of the developers who have departed have no longer had this "life line" to motivate them to continue.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby Gez » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:53 am

Hobbies aren't jobs. If something ceases to be fun, people are free to just stop. And yes some people might have an abrasive attitude and they may threaten to just stop. That's the rules of the game. If you don't like it, hire them.

Speaking of attitudes and threats, a quote from a different thread:

Kinsie wrote:I mean, if there is a next version. The deafening lack of interest as of late leads me to think I should probably just cut my losses and move onto The Next Thing instead of continuing to spit into the wind. Thoughts?


That's the same thing.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby Rachael » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:55 am

Gez wrote:Hobbies aren't jobs. If something ceases to be fun, people are free to just stop. And yes some people might have an abrasive attitude and they may threaten to just stop. That's the rules of the game. If you don't like it, hire them.

Exactly. And even if you hire them, they are free not to take the job.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby dpJudas » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:00 pm

Only someone insane would hire us anyway. :D
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby Kinsie » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:18 pm

Gez wrote:Speaking of attitudes and threats, a quote from a different thread:
Kinsie wrote:I mean, if there is a next version. The deafening lack of interest as of late leads me to think I should probably just cut my losses and move onto The Next Thing instead of continuing to spit into the wind. Thoughts?

That's the same thing.
I see what you're trying to go for here, and I briefly addressed it:
Kinsie wrote:and a damn sight better than stony silence (which, ultimately, is the most damning fate a creative endeavour can face - it means nobody gave enough of a shit to even troll it!)

I had no plans on Leaving This Hateful Internet Community Forever, just moving onto a new project I've had percolating for a while and leaving that one in Eternal Occasional Bugfix Mode like my older mods. Hence the bit about moving "onto The Next Thing". In hindsight, I can see how that might be misinterpreted, whether intentionally to try and "win" an internet forum debate or otherwise.

Although I'll gladly confess I'm perhaps a bit strange and clingy about needing something to react to - positive or negative - in order to feed my development momentum. Otherwise I arse around tweaking the same piece of microscopic detail for a month. v :| v
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby ZZYZX » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:31 pm

Leonard2 wrote:Then I tried to contribute to ZScript but that didn't hold anymore: even after Graf said that he would accept it he just didn't.
After confronting him about it he straight out ignored my post and went on as if nothing happened.
This is really a recurring thing with him and I'm not the only one to say that. He seems to like straight out ignoring arguments with people.

Derp, he accepted my ZScript contribution just fine, even though it wasn't immediately right. Same story with multiple engine-related edits before, including but not limited to portals (which in fact required him to do a lot more work by himself, namely introducing vectors for actor position/velocity storage, and switching to float/double).
Maybe it's something wrong with you or your contribution? I remember there's also this team of Monsterovich+Korshun+whoever else who like to walk around and tell stories of how Graf rejects all and every pull request being made.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby Graf Zahl » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:34 pm

dpJudas wrote:Some have thick skin.


And even those will eventually give up if some self-entitled assholes don't stop being assholes. Nobody likes constantly being harassed, especially if it's always the same people pulling the same shit over again.

There's a difference between criticism and calling a developer names because he disagrees.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Graf Zahl » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:38 pm

ZZYZX wrote:Derp, he accepted my ZScript contribution just fine, even though it wasn't immediately right.


I don't want to repeat the whole story - read my previous post -, but of course, if I say I'll accept a submission but later it turns out that it can't stay in for specific technical reasons, that initial promise is worthless. Leaving problematic code in just to appease someone's ego is the first step to a project's death.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby ZZYZX » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:43 pm

Well in that case I personally would prefer an explanation on what exactly is technically impossible, so that the feature can be edited according to the standard or whatever.

(edit: random thought went to zscript discussion)
Last edited by ZZYZX on Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Kinsie » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:49 pm

ZZYZX wrote:Maybe it's something wrong with you or your contribution? I remember there's also this team of Monsterovich+Korshun+whoever else who like to walk around and tell stories of how Graf rejects all and every pull request being made.
I don't think it's a huge stretch to say that Graf has a bedside manner that some people find very alienating. He seems to be making an effort to try and change this to a certain extent over the last year or so (ZScript, working with the BoA and D4D dudes, development blog etc.), and I greatly appreciate his doing so, but he can still be a pretty divisive guy and it's not unlikely that he just rubbed Leonard the wrong way. It doesn't necessarily mean that either side was wrong per-se, it's just a conflict of personality.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Graf Zahl » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:52 pm

ZZYZX wrote:Well in that case I personally would prefer an explanation on what exactly is technically impossible, so that the feature can be edited according to the standard or whatever.


Normally you get that. But Leonard's case was different. The code was already in and I discovered a problem with it. And it was simply the far easier solution to do it differently and remove the code to get rid of the problem.

Kinsie wrote:it's not unlikely that he just rubbed Leonard the wrong way. It doesn't necessarily mean that either side was wrong per-se, it's just a conflict of personality.


Obviously he got rubbed the wrong way.


To be clear, if I find code that doesn't work, and the two choices I have are
a) fixing it and
b) replacing it
and b) is the easier one, than the code has to go.
End of story.

Normally you get that when I reject something,

ZZYZX wrote:By the way, random thought: I just realized that that builtin function was essentially the same as an action function, just not linked to a class. Could've been merged with the previous approach, like native vararg static String Format(); with a bit changed processing in the FxFunctionCall. The vararg keyword would mean essentially "pass everything as-is, don't cast or check". And then some hacks syntax in the ZScript itself (like va_cnt(), va_type(<index>), va_at_<type>(<index>)) could be introduced to query such arguments too.
So then it'd accomplish two things at once:
- true vararg functions in ZScript
- no cluttering of the global namespace with common words (i.e. format)


Essentially correct. If you like you can redo it and put the 'format' function into the String class where it actually should belong. Which reminds me, I still need to export most if its functionality.
As for the hacks: I think I prefer to keep varargs function restricted to native ones.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby ENEMY!!! » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:56 pm

I was going to constructively post my issues with the new texture browser into the main GZDoom Builder thread, but having downloaded the latest version to check, it seems that those issues were largely bugs in the end-of-December 2016 development builds and that these have been addressed in the January 2017 builds. I'd still say I prefer the look of the Classic view suggested at http://i.imgur.com/4fVXdAR.png which seems to combine the benefits of the old and the new, but it's a lot better than it was.

It's a general issue with heavily relying on development builds; there's more potential for the odd release here and there to have off-putting bugs; on the other hand it allows development to continue at a faster incremental pace. From their frequency it looks like MaxED has worked very hard and regularly on these recently and it may be that the expectations of some got unrealistically high.

Hopefully someone will keep going as GZDoom Builder has on the whole has been an excellent development from the discontinued Doom Builder 2.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby dpJudas » Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:11 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:Obviously he got rubbed the wrong way.

I can only speculate what pissed off Leonard so much, but one thing I've noticed that I suggest you stop doing is naming whose code got a bug or got rewritten. It shifts the focus from finding solutions to blame. Only if it is absolutely needed would I bring up a name because nobody likes to be called out. And even then, it would be best done in private.

Other than that I think you're actually doing a pretty good job managing a project with so many users and diverse needs. Thanks for that. :)
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby kevansevans » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:09 pm

MaxED wrote:I think I'll better go and make Duke Builder or something. See ya.


This is a hollow threat if I have ever saw one. What a god damn selfish thing for you to do. Let me tell you something, this community owes you nothing more than an honest 'thank you for your contributions'. And by the looks of this thread sitting at >300 pages, you have had received plenty of it. What you are failing to grasp here is that you've pushed a very controversial update that has had some people, who heavily rely on your tools, take a serious nose dive in productivity, and your response to this is "take it or leave it". What you have elected yourself here to do is to make tools to make a large audience happy, not just what you personally think will make you happy. I have been in similar shoes as you, and the worst mistakes I had made were what you are doing here. Listen to your community.

(Didn't we just get done talking about how criticism needs to be less jagged? Warned, in any case. -ww)
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby SanyaWaffles » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:11 pm

Whilst I don't want to touch a thread like this, I feel I must.

I know it's a hobby, and I know it's not something you're therefore paid for or compensated, MaxEd. But it still feels a bit sour, especially when alot of people are not decrying your work entirely. The fact people are giving you feedback is great.

It's not because they hate your work, but because they love it and don't want it to falter, be it to bugs/staleness, or a poor UI choice.

I posted a mod several years ago and people... were less than kind.

I understand why they were, looking back , and I took a general consensus from what occured and what people said, and I went from there. No one's perfect, but we can learn from it.

Spoiler:


It feels like you think people were just ganging up on you without any care for you. Trust me, we're not gonna purpousfully burn you like that. I know I wouldn't. I appreciate you continuing the work of CodeImp's Doom Builder, but I also apporeciate people's feedback towards your project. It shows people not only use your editor, but they want it to be the best it can be.

Not everyone is a pro at criticism (and Euranna makes a good point, there's ways of dishing out criticism one must be careful on), but I don't feel people would be sincerely complaining if they didn't care.

Except cave trolls typing 'fake and gay' and 'first', but I didn't see much, if any, of that.

I personally wasn't that bothered by the new textures/script browsers in GZDB, but I'm gonna say, I understand why people don't. It's not just the fact it's "new", it also kind of looks off, especially since no one was shown the differences before/after the change.

I will give a more personal example of why UI changes without warning can cause disorientation and people not being keen with it:

The two control panels in Windows 10.

The fact there's two is confusing. The fact you can do some things in one but not both - is frustrating. The fact you can't access both with ease, just the modern one... yeah you see my point.

That can be very cojnfusing and frustrating, especially if you knew how to do it the old wayby heart and the new way is more complex.

And for many, the new texture browser probably caused something like that.

I hope we can learn from all this, not just MaxED, but everyone who reads this. That includes me.

The best thing we can do is fork and try to implement bugfixes. That and learn from this incident (and similar). And keep looking ahead.

And if, and I hope he does, come back, MaxED can learn from this too, and come to a comprimise, merge the bugfixes back, and keep improving GZDB.
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