Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby ENEMY!!! » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:37 am

Looking back, I think it must have mainly been a mix of the ZScript and lump management requests/demands and the complaints about the new texture browser. Personally, I've been more than content to use SLADE 3 for the lump management and then the one-click process of importing changes to the resources into GZDoom Builder.

Actually I think there are legitimate reasons to complain about the new texture browser. I actually rolled back to a previous version because of it. In the old browser, I work with small (64x64) images for each texture, to allow me to browse quickly through a large number of textures if desired (this is also how I use the Worldcraft editors for Half-Life and Quake), and they work fine. When I upgraded to the new browser, I found that this approach didn't work; many of the textures showed up as "X" and so I had to choose between increasing the image size substantially, or letting it display texture previews proportionately to their size. The folder structure may have been an improvement for people who put their textures in folders, but as I don't have my textures in folders I found it primarily an inconvenience. I didn't have a significant issue with the grey boxes around the textures though.

The complaints could quite possibly have been worded better/more constructively, but nor do I like, when a change doesn't work out as well as intended, the approach of minimising others' concerns and telling them to get used to it. Ultimately, if people complain too strongly the developer may leave, but if the developer goes ahead with changes that too many people don't like, it could put off a slice of the user base. Hopefully MaxED will return or someone else will take up the reins at some point. In the meantime I'll be sticking with GZDoom Builder version 2.3.0.2711.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Kinsie » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:40 am

TechnoDoomed1 wrote:You say contributing isn't something you like anymore because your ideas are not even listened to. Do not confuse being listened to with being obeyed. They are in charge of their project, so if you don't like it, start/fork your own. ZDoom and its derivatives are not community projects, they are pet projects of the developers who share it with the rest because they want If you want to take part of it, you have to work with them and respect their decisions.
You're right. Clearly the correct choice here is make GZDoom closed source. :wink:
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Enjay » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:40 am

Trance wrote:Does anybody know of any other communities with this many armchair-developer shit fits? Or is it something ZDoom in particular specializes in?

EVERY community. And I don't just mean software or online. My experience with a large number of voluntary or amateur organisations (where I have been either the organiser, one of the general population or merely a casual observer) has this kind of problem sooner or later. One of the worst cases, believe it or not, was in a cancer charity where you'd think people would have bigger things to concern themselves with than petty bickering. The people who can do things, or who are just willing to step up and do whatever is needed, sooner or later find themselves subject to these kind of "shit fits" and, often, such fits are the root cause of those people leaving and then the community fractures or collapses. It seems to be the nature of people.

I think, perhaps, something that should be kept in mind is that, in this community, the developers are doing a favour for those who can't or wont do the coding side of things (and anyone doing anything for the community equally so). They may well be doing it because they want to and because they find it fun but, nevertheless and like it or not, they are doing a favour. Now, this doesn't mean that people shouldn't criticise, suggest or ask for things but it should be done in a suitable way. If any one of us was doing someone a favour, in any area, and the person benefiting just responded with harsh words, rude criticism, repeated demands of things you didn't want to do or personal attacks, well - I know I'd probably walk away and stop doing whatever it was I'd been doing. How many of us even say "thank you" when something is released for the community? The forum attachments for GZDoom suggest that there have been at least 4500 downloads of GZDoom 2.3.2 since it was released 3 days ago and there are only a handful of posts in the thread (I know the downloads can come from a number of sources and not everyone is signed up etc but, even so, there's a big discrepancy in those numbers).
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Graf Zahl » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:52 am

TechnoDoomed1 wrote:You say contributing isn't something you like anymore because your ideas are not even listened to. Do not confuse being listened to with being obeyed. They are in charge of their project, so if you don't like it, start/fork your own. ZDoom and its derivatives are not community projects, they are pet projects of the developers who share it with the rest because they want If you want to take part of it, you have to work with them and respect their decisions.



To shed some light on this ridiculousness here's the story behind it:

Some time ago when I was starting to implement virtual functions, Leonard offered to implement a system that was supposed to avoid excessive renaming of functions in the code.
All was nice and well and seemed to work fine - until one day I scriptified a class that was a subclass of a subclass of Actor, and did NOT work.

Turned out that I had to activate the system Leonard gave me for each and every class in the engine - so instead of trying to fix the thing I just tossed it out and implemented the original idea which involved function renaming. That entire cleanup cost me two hours after which it was working like it should be - fixing and maintaining the system would have been a constant hassle into the future.
What some people seem to forget here is that no matter how good their code is, it's other people which have to live with it and make do with it. And if these other people decide that just dumping it is the best solution - so be it. Nobody is entitiled to have their code treated like being sacred.
Over the last 10 years I tossed out countless of subsystems Randi wrote, like, for example, the menus, I also rewrote lots of Randi's code to work better and the opposite also happened. Or take the expression evaluator in DECORATE. The first version was written by Grubber, but some time later I decided that the system, while doing its job was not good enough and rewrote it from the ground up - that code is still working as the backend for DECORATE and ZScript now.
Nobody ever threw a fit over this - but when I tossed out Leonard's code he immediately accused me of whatever, and I see he still hasn't laid that grudge to rest.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby dpJudas » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:00 am

Enjay wrote:I think, perhaps, something that should be kept in mind is that, in this community, the developers are doing a favour for those who can't or wont do the coding side of things (and anyone doing anything for the community equally so). They may well be doing it because they want to and because they find it fun but, nevertheless and like it or not, they are doing a favour.

I wouldn't go as far as saying I'm doing people a favor with the contributions I do, although if I'm fixing a bug that is not in my personal interest it kind of is.

What I think people should keep in mind that any developer that is working on Doom related stuff is here to to have fun. If it is no longer fun then they stop. Each time someone attack someone's contributions (reasonable or not) they subtract from the fun of coding ZDoom things. This also applies to anyone else doing stuff, mods, graphics, running the website, our moderators policing the forum. Treat them like shit and they WILL quit. So if you must complain about something, make sure you do it in a way that keeps the positive tone and accept that sometimes you can't have your way.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Enjay » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:09 am

dpJudas wrote:I wouldn't go as far as saying I'm doing people a favor with the contributions I do, although if I'm fixing a bug that is not in my personal interest it kind of is.

And I'll respectfully disagree. :) If you've done something that improves my enjoyment of this game, whether you did it specifically for me or not, whether you enjoyed doing it or not and whether it was against your own personal interests or not, you've done me a favour. Thank you. :D

I think your second paragraph sums it all up very nicely.

An even shorter way (and this works in so many situations): "just don't be dicks to each other".
Last edited by Enjay on Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Sandro » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:09 am

Enjay wrote:How many of us even say "thank you" when something is released for the community? The forum attachments for GZDoom suggest that there have been at least 4500 downloads of GZDoom 2.3.2 since it was released 3 days ago and there are only a handful of posts in the thread.

You have experience in various online or real life communities, so you know that silent majority is indeed a fact and that's not going to change any time soon. :wink: Now, I haven't counted, but as I follow this thread for some time now, I've seen most active users (i.e. commenting or requesting some features) say at least several times thanks to MaxED. I find it quite satisfying from an objective point of view.

Enjay wrote:Now, this doesn't mean that people shouldn't criticise, suggest or ask for things but it should be done in a suitable way.

I haven't seen much disrespectful posts before this drama happened. (Honestly there was only one from a very passive user who never posted in this thread before ; for me this has to be ignored, as all of the posts of the others were *rather* polite)


Still, you guys keep arguing about a main question that have been answered already by Enjay and some others before : just read what I quoted above. So you should stop bring the discuss in this direction and focus instead on the topic. :wink:
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Enjay » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:17 am

Sandro wrote:You have experience in various online or real life communities, so you know that silent majority is indeed a fact and that's not going to change any time soon. :wink: Now, I haven't counted, but as I follow this thread for some time now, I've seen most active users (i.e. commenting or requesting some features) say at least several times thanks to MaxED. I find it quite satisfying from an objective point of view.

Absolutely. And I wouldn't expect a few thousand thank yous whenever a new [whatever] was posted, and yes I do actually think that people are generally positive and appreciative too. But I'm also sure that many of us who can and should probably say thank you often don't.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Rachael » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:32 am

Locking this so I can have some time to split off the off-topic posts. This topic will be usable again soon.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby Rachael » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:45 am

Split done.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby Kinsie » Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:44 am

Forgive me for finding the heavily implied threats of "if you so much as consider raising concerns about changes to a thing you care about, no matter how constructive, I'll abandon it and leave you in the fucking lurch forever" scattered throughout this thread (and the one it was snipped from in an attempt to bury it) to be more than a little messed up, and to have a deeply poisonous effect on future feedback and development of source ports and utilities - will my bug report or feature request be the one that breaks the camel's back? Will I get a [Fuck You All Forever] and accidentally ruin it for everyone, or just get the usual [No]?

The most important part of creative work - especially interactive media like videogames - is the ability to maintain a doctor-like distance from your work. People will critique it. People will complain about it. And given that this is the internet and there's typically several thousand miles and at least two screens between you and them, they probably won't use their pleases and thank-yous. But here's the thing: They give a shit. They care about your work. They want it to be better. And they're responding to it. Is that as pleasant or warm-fuzzies inducing as praise and positivity? No. But it's arguably more important, typically more honest, and a damn sight better than stony silence (which, ultimately, is the most damning fate a creative endeavour can face - it means nobody gave enough of a shit to even troll it!). And as a result, ultimately, the best way is to detach your personal ego from your work where possible and necessary, and attempt to look over complaints and criticism with an outsider's objectivity.

Is it easy? Fuck no. DeviantArt's existence strongly attests to that, and it personally took me a long time to shake off my poisonous all-my-stuff-is-actually-great attitude and adjust to how the world works. Is it necessary? Absolutely. Because without developing that ability to not take feedback against your hard work personally, you will not last through the long term in any creative endeavour in the long term. Not as a hobbyist, and almost certainly not as a professional. And as far as hobbyist communities go, Doom modding is not an enormously large and/or caustic one, which makes looking at negative feedback and separating the chaff (obvious trolls, people too frustrated to actually detail their problem properly, etc. etc.) from the wheat (bug reports, critique, general distaste) a lot easier than it would be in a community surrounding a much larger, newer game.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby AdmiralAjax » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:06 am

To add to Kinsie's post: you know what you get when criticism gets overblown? The Nexus. Not that there isn't unconstructive criticisms in those comment sections, but I've been around long enough to know that some mod authors think they're gods gift to the world because they can slap some crap together *cough*ddproductions83*hack*

Another thing about the Nexus. You can get banned from being able to download a modders content if they so choose. Do you REALLY think people are going to be anything but kissasses knowing they could just be shut out for so much as saying they disliked a minor thing about a mod?

Also, Gategate was a thing, an incredibly stupid thing.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby Rachael » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:16 am

@ Kinsie: You are right about people giving a shit. That is a sure sign that a project is worth something. The thinly veiled threats of "I'm going to leave" are not pleasant or fun to read.

But here's the catch: No one's forcing a project author to stay. It's not the right thing to even attempt, not to mention it wouldn't be successful anyway. That amounts to slavery, really.

So they DO have the right to say it - and to follow through with that threat. The thing is - no one can stop them. Is that ideal? Fuck no. But it's all we have, right now, which right now is better than them doing nothing at all.
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby zrrion the insect » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:19 am

Shit, I wish people would give me valuable feedback on my work so that I could do the friendly and helpful thing and tell everyone to get fucked before disappearing forever. Wouldn't that be swell and perfectly understandable and totally something to do from the top of my "everyone uses my work therefore I am important and superior" throne. :roll:
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Re: Developer issues discussion (GZDB split)

Postby dpJudas » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:29 am

In an ideal world you're of course right, Kinsie. But in the real world developers have feelings and react differently to critique. Some have thick skin, others less so (clearly MaxED had less). Asking everyone to man up has the unfortunate side effect that some people decide they'd rather go do something else.

Note that I'm not asking anyone to kiss my ass, or applaud the things I commit as ingenious art. And I find any developer using actual threats of quitting as just acting childish. All I'm saying is that we all have our reasons for being here. To me that's to have fun. Each time someone says the stuff I did sucks, it gets less fun.
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