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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Graf Zahl » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:57 pm

TerminusEst13 wrote:This is an incredibly autocratic statement. :?


That may be, but as things are, developers are a rare resource which you do not waste - especially if it's about something that has no benefit. Sadly you can't pick the ones with nice personalities, you have to take what you can get, even if it sometimes can get a bit annoying.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Rachael » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:00 pm

Easiest way to solve the problem: Start learning C++/C#. If your interest is in this project, it's still available on Github and can still be forked. Grab a compiler, start changing shit, merge in ZZYZX's pull request, rename it, and make it official. Now's a better time to do it than any. And if MaxED does come back, he can always upstream whatever you guys create if he feels it's stable and well-tested enough.

Yes - those languages are hard, but you're never going to learn them if you don't try. And the easiest thing to do is just to dive right in and break enough shit that you start figuring out what is linked to what.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby TechnoDoomed1 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:35 pm

Eruanna wrote:I think it's a simple fact that if this community had more C++/C# developers than it does now, - actually, every project, in fact, would be much further along than it is right now. So there is that.


Well, those languages have seen a slight decline in popularity over the years, so it's only normal. Also, C++ isn't precisely a very friendly language.

TerminusEst13 wrote:This is an incredibly autocratic statement. :?


Agreed.

Graf Zahl wrote:That may be, but as things are, developers are a rare resource which you do not waste - especially if it's about something that has no benefit. Sadly you can't pick the ones with nice personalities, you have to take what you can get, even if it sometimes can get a bit annoying.


I do think that maxed had reasons to be upset, but ultimately he didn't take criticism very well. I understand that the developer's job is a rather ungrateful one, because they do all the work and the community usually replies with something like "cool" and just throws in more feature requests. Those are inevitably part of the development cycle and can help shape the project and keep it alive, but they can also be a drag.

I think that maxed did those changes with the intention to improve upon things, and didn't like the backlash it got. Still, unproportionate in my opinion.

I understand that you can't pick your developers, but still things would have exploded at any other moment if people were to just shut up about it. When you take unilateral decisions that the community doesn't like, and refuse to undo the change afterwards, people don't take it well. Because as true as it may be "better to shut up because they can stop development and therefore the community loses", just as true is "you can't control how everyone's gonna react" and "the community doesn't like to be ignored when there is consensus".
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Rachael » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:42 pm

TechnoDoomed1 wrote:
TerminusEst13 wrote:This is an incredibly autocratic statement. :?


Agreed.

Whether you agree or not it's a simple truth. If you think I enjoy that, then you don't know me at all.

In fact, as far as I am aware, both myself and Graf have been trying to encourage people to pick up source codes and start modifying them and contributing - and this exact problem is one of those very reasons.

So you can complain all you want about how I worded it or phrased it - but as an old saying goes, the truth hurts. The only way to change the truth is to become the change you want.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby TechnoDoomed1 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:45 pm

It's not about it being true or not, because it is. In there both you and Graf are completely right, but it still doesn't change that people aren't gonna like it or act upon it, because they feel they are being ignored.

Also, I'm sorry if I offended you in any way as it wasn't my intention at all. I didn't mean to portray the idea that you are autocratic, so pardon me if it seemed that way.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Rachael » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:50 pm

I would love nothing more than there being more C++/C# coders in this community. Not only do I think about how it's less that *I* (and in turn, Graf and dpJudas and in this case, MaxED) have to do, but just think of all the incredible things that could happen if so many minds came together with great ideas and were capable of carrying them out. We really could come up with the perfect source port, with the perfect editor (possibly even embedded! ... although that's probably wishful thinking). Sure, there would be a lot of people stepping on each other's toes, and inevitably with all the changes there will be merge errors, too, but I'd take that over the pseudo-stagnation we have now any day. Innovation is exciting.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Major Cooke » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:42 pm

ZZYZX wrote:It's as if someone like Major Cooke (sorry for personal references, not meaning anything bad here :)) would be the main developer of GZDoom and altered the port to suit his own needs for AeOD or D4D, and would tell everyone who doesn't like it to either adjust or do pull requests (note: the pull requests part only appeared after we, while dealing with huge opposition from his side, actually convinced MaxED to use Git).


None taken. I was already being accused of that from the first place with ZScript. :P
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Graf Zahl » Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:16 am

Eruanna wrote: but just think of all the incredible things that could happen if so many minds came together with great ideas and were capable of carrying them out.


I'd not be that optimistic. Under normal circumstances it'd be 10 people trying to pull a project into 5 different directions. Due to the multitude of pull requests this has already happened to some degree to ZDoom and might have been a contributing factor for Randi calling it quits.

What you really need for a development team is disciplined developers, i.e. people who are willing to listen to each other and discuss options, not some who throw a fit if a project doesn't go into the precise direction they want it to go. And when the project leader says "no", that "no" should be final and not result in endless bickering about that person's stupidity, laziness, complacency or whatever they might be accused of - all traits I've seen galore here at the forum - especially from some programmers. Most "No"s are given because the leader doesn't have to look a day or two ahead but a year or two and may see problems develop that are not obvious to those who want that feature implemented.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Leonard2 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:17 am

Graf Zahl wrote:Sometimes it may really be advisable to just shut the fuck up if you start to notice that the developer is starting to get pissed off and any further action may just cause more damage.

Someone in the thread already pointed out how utterly childish this behavior is:
Jaxxoon R wrote:"There you have it! No more GZDoom Builder!"


Graf Zahl wrote:Attitude issues nonwithstanding, this unpleasant episode highlights a very troubling side of the community, which I also have seen during the ZScript discussion, and that is some people getting worked up over trivialities and then accusing the developers of laziness or ignorance if they are not interested in this stuff and don't act on it.

It's very interesting to see you talking about this in such a way. It almost feels like you're "playing the victim" for some reason.
I think you forgot a few things and you need to reconsider the issue:
ZScript is NOT a simple trivial change like discussed in this thread.
The context is also very important: the people suggesting things for ZScript are used to the horrible experience of DECORATE and knowing that any flaw they might find in it would have to be put up with forever.
I recall I wasn't the only one who tried to explain this to you but the fact that you kept pushing to make ZScript a "final thing" that "won't need to be changed" in turn pushed people to voice their concern for anything because they didn't want to put up with new stupid limitations forever like they had to with DECORATE.
There's also the fact that you would dismiss any discussion at the time on the account that either this was only the start of ZScript or that "this is a trivial detail I don't want to discuss" which in the end allowed you to discuss nothing.
If you ignore people like that it will only make them voice their concern harder since you don't address it in any way leaving them with it.
Such things really should be discussed before having them done and be considered 'final'.

Eruanna wrote:I would love nothing more than there being more C++/C# coders in this community. Not only do I think about how it's less that *I* (and in turn, Graf and dpJudas and in this case, MaxED) have to do, but just think of all the incredible things that could happen if so many minds came together with great ideas and were capable of carrying them out. We really could come up with the perfect source port, with the perfect editor (possibly even embedded! ... although that's probably wishful thinking). Sure, there would be a lot of people stepping on each other's toes, and inevitably with all the changes there will be merge errors, too, but I'd take that over the pseudo-stagnation we have now any day. Innovation is exciting.

Personally I stopped making pull requests because of this: a bit ago I was contributing on the DECORATE code generator and it was fine: all I did was ask for approval on the suggestions (as I said things need to be discussed before doing them) and then the following pull request would be merged and it went fine.
Then I tried to contribute to ZScript but that didn't hold anymore: even after Graf said that he would accept it he just didn't.
After confronting him about it he straight out ignored my post and went on as if nothing happened.
This is really a recurring thing with him and I'm not the only one to say that. He seems to like straight out ignoring arguments with people.
I'm also convinced he will ignore this very post as he always did.
That's why. I don't want to contribute to something if people aren't willing to listen to me at all. At this point it's no use contributing if you ask me.
If the devs would be willing to take the time to listen and discuss issues and hold to what they said I would gladly contribute.
Contributing used to be a thing I enjoyed but now it doesn't seem very "appreciated" to me anymore.
That was my opinion and that's all I had to say about that, make of that what you will.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Leonard2 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:35 am

Graf Zahl wrote:people who are willing to listen to each other and discuss options

Exactly the opposite of what you did with the ZScript situation as you pointed out.
Graf Zahl wrote:And when the project leader says "no", that "no" should be final

You can't have it both ways. You can't at the same time listen to people and not listen to people.
This is what needs to be absolutely avoided.
With randi this was justified because she created it. It was hers.
What did we end up with? This release schedule that even you didn't like.
We ended up with 2 forks that instead should have been part of the whole thing long ago.
Then someone will tell me "if you don't like the project leader then make your own fork".
What should we do? Should we contribute and make pull requests or should everyone make 9001 forks?
A project leader should lead people. As in listen to them and lead with the people following him. Not divide them.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby TechnoDoomed1 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:42 am

Leonard2 wrote:It's very interesting to see you talking about this in such a way. It almost feels like you're "playing the victim" for some reason.


Whoa, whoa... slow down, Mary.

If anyone's throwing a hissy fit or playing the victim, perhaps you should look in the mirror first. You're not the one who's developing ZScript. Graf is, and therefore he is calling the shots. Attempting to get *everything* decided and done at the same time it's just nuts. Don't forget were talking about coding an entire scripting language that can open up so many things in-engine that have never been exposed before. Furthermore, Graf posted issues regarding ZScript and asked for the community's views and ideas on the matter, so I don't believe that he has been ignoring anyone.

You say contributing isn't something you like anymore because your ideas are not even listened to. Do not confuse being listened to with being obeyed. They are in charge of their project, so if you don't like it, start/fork your own. ZDoom and its derivatives are not community projects, they are pet projects of the developers who share it with the rest because they want If you want to take part of it, you have to work with them and respect their decisions.
Last edited by TechnoDoomed1 on Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Trance » Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:57 am

Does anybody know of any other communities with this many armchair-developer shit fits? Or is it something ZDoom in particular specializes in?
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Lud » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:05 am

Start a separate thread if you're going to argue about ZDoom development. This is the GZDoom Builder thread.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Kinsie » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:28 am

Trance wrote:Does anybody know of any other communities with this many armchair-developer shit fits? Or is it something ZDoom in particular specializes in?
ZDoom is relatively civilised and actually allows criticism in some way, shape or form, so it's miles ahead of Mod Nexus.
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Re: GZDoom Builder 2.3

Postby Graf Zahl » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:29 am

@Leonard2:

Thanks for proving my point!
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