"Oh wait, you're a girl?"

[Rachael]

And that's the kind of stuff that gets under my skin. Yeah, I'll listen for the occasional technical explanation or two even when I know what is being explained. It's when it's repetitive, the other person thinks I can't grasp certain concepts because I am a girl, that really bothers me. In many cases it's like - dude, I was knee-deep in this stuff before you were even born, and I did just fine with it then without your help.

[DoomKrakken]

I'm sorry, guys. I didn't mean to resurrect this debate.

I was just... fumingly angry... is all.

Yes, I know opinions will inevitably clash... and in many cases, it does lead to progress. However, what I meant to say was that there was absolutely nothing productive coming from such clashing. It was just a "scream over here, scream over there" type deal, which devolved into meaningless rubbish, and everyone walked away from the thread, feeling naught the better, and that cancerous section of the thread was quarantined and locked, with the key thrown out.

Is this progress?

I mean, are arguments supposed to make us hate each other? Are they supposed to destroy any sense of goodwill we have for one another? Are they meant to divide us? Are they meant to make this environment toxic?

Or are arguments supposed to compare and contrast viewpoints, while finding common ground all parties can agree with? Are they meant to unite, not divide? Are they meant to build, rather than destroy, our sense of goodwill for one another? Are they meant to make the world a better place?

I would hope it's the latter.

If something productive did come from this whole shenanigan... as in, agreements were made, friendships were formed, new thoughts were forged, empathy was felt, boundaries were crossed, or whatever else... then I would've had no problem with what had happened. But that's not what happened. So I got angry, then I vented, and then I got scalded from my own steam.

I sincerely apologize again for resurrecting any strife caused in the cut-off thread. Please forgive me.

Enough derailing from me... let's get back on topic now.

[Rachael]

@DoomKrakken:

There are some things which you will not understand coming from a point of view that is not your own. Try to take that into consideration before you get "fumingly angry" at someone for getting upset.

Just because it's not a big deal to you doesn't mean it's just as meaningless to someone else. Try and imagine someone comes into your home, takes away all your things, your livelihood, just so they can afford to buy drugs? If it happened to someone else the most you'd probably ever say is "Aw, that sucks man, hope you get your stuff back!" ... and then move on. But if it happened to you ... well ... that changes a lot, doesn't it? When it hits home like that, it suddenly really means something to you. You start feeling less safe, you worry about what happened to your stuff and what they are doing with it.

That's what happened here. Some people can really identify with what they're saying. You can't. So of course you aren't going to be able to understand the reactions people have. I have been battling gender stereotypes my whole life. It's not that I have anything to prove - I am just tired of people treating me different because I am a girl. And when people continue to think that's okay - but it really is not. It's always better to ask.

[DoomKrakken]

@Eruanna

I actually had taken that into consideration when I vented. I wasn't upset at people getting upset... I was upset that the resulting chaos led nowhere, which left people jaded, bitter, and hard of heart. I was angry because people could have agreed with each other and seemingly chose not to (correct me if I'm wrong). I was infuriated that people were getting upset and not getting anything good out of it... that when the smoke cleared, all that was left was rubble and desolation, rather than something useful. Something... beautiful.

I understand people would get upset over some of the things other people think, but I felt it could've been handled a bit more civilly, even if all sides had arguments stuffed with ambiguity and charged words that struck one too many nerves. And, I never said that none of this was a big deal... I possess strong empathy, and somehow can understand exactly how one feels, simply by hearing them speak, or even reading what they write/type. Somehow, for me, it all hits home. I saw common ground for both sides that neither side utilized... as though they wanted to remain polarized (correct me if I'm wrong). Since I understand both sides, and want them to get along, it's doubly a big deal for me.

I suppose your words apply to all parties involved...

Thanks for your kind words.

(ok... if we're to continue this, we've seriously gotta take this to PM... XD)

[HavoX]

Never judge a person based on their nationality, religion, race, gender, skin colour, or look.

What matters is who they are on the inside.

[Tapwave]

What matters is who they are on the inside.

Equality of opportunity is my main jam. Doesn't matter what you're orientation, skin color, gender, age. As long as you have the skills and the capacity to carry out the job, then by all means, carry it out!
Preferential-ism only breeds resent and digs schisms between communities that should be embracing themselves rather than segregate.

[Big C]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure most people here are not JimpArgon and thus don't mean each other any ill-will, so if anyone here is feeling angry and taking things personally I recommend they step outside and take five and smell the roses and breeaaaaaaatttthhheee.

Or do what I do and do martial arts.

[unRyker]

Didn't realize I was about to sound preachy but here goes---

I'm with JimpArgon's sentiment on this one- albeit not as harsh so; but it is a hivemind problem that splits us into these two (almost indistinguishable) mindsets that get really complicated and makes us all biased by/in media. You hardly see any media these days that have both headlines such as 'Minority gets attacked by majority for being x' vs. 'This person attacked this person'. I believe that this somehow conditions us to behave in a certain way. It varies everywhere. We could feel empathy for the minority because they're outnumbered according to media, or look at the situation ourselves and try to figure out the clear picture.

I'm heavily in favor of the latter- looking at the situation as a whole. I try to interpret situations in my own ways by doing my own research on these ideas of people. What are their morals? How were they behaving to one another? Disregard race, skin-color, gender, sexual affiliation--- (if there is no given motive, never assume it's because of race, skin-color, gender, sexual preference...) it should not be affecting who is the antagonist or protagonist. To be more specific- if you say anything like 'Well I'm on this side because white people are bad because look at all these article titles on CNN so I'm in favor of the minority' or 'I'm on this side because African Americans are bad because look at all these posts by FOX News' [ugly stereotype, I know] to judge other events- they should not be valid arguments in my eyes. From there- it all becomes a mess, a disagreement of 'Not all X's' and 'It's most X's'. It gets pretty ugly and the debate doesn't even go anywhere.

However- how I view things is obviously not the most perfect. It's not just me either, it's all of us. We will unconsciously act nicer to any gender of our choosing for romantic relationships- that's just how things are. If we want to get nasty- we will surely go for the jugular, meaning we will try to hurl personal insults at one another- but in the end, insults are insults and sympathy is sympathy. This question really remains when judging the situation in the first place- was it justified?

What's more important to note that this is the internet- people can get cocky all they want for both the right and wrong reasons-- they have all the time in the world to come up with a snarky, witty comeback--- they don't have to show their emotion whether it's embarrassment, anger or sadness- they don't even have to see how the other person is feeling either. The internet seriously dehumanizes us in multiple ways.

Also, please note that I'm not denying that women are inflicted and targeted by what the average troll says. Nor do I even endorse violence. I whole-heatedly agree that we can be a better community but I felt the need to point out that I think that all of our logic and reasoning is heavily flawed (especially towards others). Apologies for bringing up some really hot-topics but I felt it was the best examples I could use to show my reason of thinking without going on rambling (which I did a little of anyway).

In the end- we're all just here to play some games and we do try to pick out the rotten eggs from the community as well. I will look out for you even if our opinions clash and I hope you do the same, we all enjoy one of the most legendary video-games of all time!


Disclaimer- feel free to point out where you disagree because I'm willing to listen to other points of views, this is really the whole point of why I posted. Anyways, I'm just glad that this seemed like a relevant place to put it all out there. Wishing you all a good night.

Don't judge others on... .... religion

Off-topic:
I surely do see where you're coming from but I judge people based on their religion anyway. Controversial as it might seem- it's because I see each religion has their own sets of morals or default milestone or goal a person should reach. I don't ever see myself getting along with people that may not have the same philosophies as I do (or even ideologies that completely contradict my own and vice versa). Even I am not very religious myself but we're all guided by something for different reasons. To build off of that- it'[s common sense that we would want to be close to others on subjects that we can all mutually agree on. For starters, I will most likely bond with others that are closer to my beliefs and morals first and quickest. I like surrounding myself with people that comfort me the most. Will there ever be cases that I become good acquaintances with people of certain religions I judge or even despise the most? Absolutely! In the long run though, why risk having a torn friendship or an ugly dispute over something in the future when you could judge them and avoid it entirely? Chances are- if I don't like someone over their philosophies, then the feeling is mutual. I do look forward to the day when we can all compromise onto something to the point where we don't specifically have to say 'Don't judge'- unfortunately, that seems too perfect for our world.

[agaures]

I mean, are arguments supposed to make us hate each other? Are they supposed to destroy any sense of goodwill we have for one another? Are they meant to divide us? Are they meant to make this environment toxic?

Arguments will only make sides hate each other if they are said/meant in hateful ways. Having differing opinions isn't a bad thing, but it becomes bad when you try to force your opinion downs someone else's throat or try to forcibly change someones opinion. I saw this behavior from both "sides" of the discussion. I don't know why my initial post or a lot of the posts in this thread were split as they didn't have any hateful intent, only presenting different points of view. They also didn't seem to be related to the main posts that were meant to be split.

A different opinion doesn't insinuate hate towards those that don't share the same view but is an opportunity for discussion. For example, i don't think 'mansplaining' is a good word (most likely because of how i see it usually used) as it implies that men are the only ones capable of being patronizing towards women. That this can't happen around the other way. I do agree with umRyker that media today intentionally divides us into groups or minorities/majorities making us instantly blame something like gender or race being the problem (unless whatever action obviously is). Not to say that any of Euranna's real life experiences aren't because of her gender, but we may be too quick to point out the incorrect cause. I've encountered far too many patronizing people in real life, and it wasn't because of gender on either side. Some people will just be condescending on certain subject matters if they feel confident in it or even when they don't know anything about the matter. Some people just have this superiority personality. I've also had some women do the same thing to me because of gender. I'm not dismissing any sexist/racist/hateful act that anyone has experienced and i also don't like that i have to have a disclaimer for every point i make on a touchy subject like this in this day and age.

[ledillman]

Hiding the fact that I'm a trans gril on the internet all these years has been pretty hard, thankfully, I've found lots of support from my family, friends and even some doomers in the past few months.
Still, I don't tell that things to everyone I met playing online. I used to get shit from people that never saw me before or anything.

[mumblemumble]

Never judge a person based on their nationality, religion, race, gender, skin colour, or look.

What matters is who they are on the inside.

This should be aspired to, yes, but prejudice exists for when we CANNOT have the time to do so before a decision, or its otherwise not possible, or recommended to ask

fact is, certain traits heavily IMPLY other traits. Someone being a healthier body weight IMPLIES better physical fitness, someone being well read and intelligent IMPLIES education on a higher level. THIS IS NOT PROOF, but we naturally ask, or assume so if we cannot ask.

I've had this happen lots to me! I will have conversations and get asked "which college did you go to!" and people are surprised when I say I never went. I don't take offense to to the prejudice, nor do I take offense to people assuming I like sports, cod, heavy drinking, or other things "because I'm a guy". People also assume I get angry more, am more dangerous because of being a guy, but I'm one of the most calm people I know (at least in america)

Pattern recognition is how we learn after all, and sometimes learned patterns are incorrect. If a dog hears a dinner bell for food, and comes for food, THIS IS NOT A GAURENTEE OF FOOD, but it IS a learned association, through experience by them. Nobody DEMANDED the dog comes when the bell rings, the dog comes of its own free will, as it wants the food it ASSOCIATES with the bell.

So yes, all these things are not gaurentees, nobody EVER said the were. This said, would you hit the dog because the bell rang and and it bolted into the room? no. Because it expects it, and you pet it and let it know there is no food this time. Dog will understand this, surely, given time to process and examine the information. And if the bell is no longer used for this, it takes time, and experience for it to be unlearned.

Biggest thing I can say is if you don't want prejudice against XYZ group, don't do the things that earn such prejudice.

Its hard for me to say for instance, "not all white guys are nerdy, wear glasses,pocket protectors, cannot cope with conflict, cannot dance" if every single one of these traits applied to me, and all my friends of the same group. Even if I say otherwise, anyone would look, see, and see all of the guys in the room WERE exactly like that, and learn from it. It might not be correct or "right" morally (which is subjective) But its still done every single day.

So I guess its 2 parted the solution. 1!: if you are not part of a stereotype, SHOW that you are NOT part of a stereotype!!! if I say "not all white guys cannot dance", but then refuse to dance, I am fully aware of the stereotype, and that I am promoting it!. If I wish to break it, I will dance! At very least, people must then acknowlege that I am different than the stereotype. 2!: if you see people who ARE the walking stereotype, LET THEM KNOW!!! Anytime one person of a group is exactly as a stereotype says, this promotes the stereotype FAR more than any "biggot" or anyone else ever could. So for instance, if you SEE a black person acting unreasonable and crazy, and you are black, talk to them and say "dude, you are promoting the stereotype and causing prejudice towards us! STOP!". If a trans is being crazy, emotional, getting into fights, and being absolutely shameless in public say "Yo, you are promoting the stereotype that trans people are loony, KNOCK IT OFF!!" ECT, ect.

Prejudice can suck, but stopping it doesn't come from telling people NOT to have it, its stopped by cutting off the fuel to the fire, by not FEEDING the stereotype. You cannot, and will not ever get the dog to NOT come from the bell ringing if it works 70% of the time, because it has faith on the pattern of 70% success. If you lower this to say, 10% success, he will eventually stop, but it takes time still.

Another thing to understand is judgement shouldn't be TOO harsh on people for stereotypes IF rejudice (rejudging) is done by the person. For instance, if I'm in a store, and am wearing the exact same outfit as the workers, people will assume I work there. If someone asks where to find XYZ, I say "sorry, I dont work here, I just dress this way". 99% of folks will understand, and theres no reason for hostility (and hostility just makes it worse). However, if a guy follows me around and insists "NO NO NO, you are wearing the clothes, where is this section!!!" THEN I can get upset, because hes rejecting my answer about MYSELF. But until that point, hostilities should be almost 0

i don't think 'mansplaining' is a good word

Its an awful word, as it dismisses ALL information based on, "you are a man". This is exactly the same as a woman providing a long, compelling paper which I cannot point out inconsistencies or fallacies to, and saying "you are wrong because you are a woman" or "black" or "a child" or "trans" or anything else. If your only arguement is "you are a man, therefor wrong" I would argue that 99% of the time you even SAY that you are full of it, and it also earns a LOT of prejudice towards YOU...

Lots of people assume all feminists / sjws are entirely full of shit, and anytime someone says this, everyone goes "YUP! see? they rejected an argument ONLY based on gender. They are the real sexists". If you don't want to be dismissed like that, and be viewed like that, don't do it.

(Warned - see following post. -ww)

[wildweasel]

Ahem. The other part of the thread got locked for a reason, mumblemumble, I'd appreciate if you didn't try to rekindle it.

[mumblemumble]

Just give me a 3 day ban in off topic. It will help curb temptation to say anything. (wish debate wasn't so stifled, and otherwise I will open my gab again.)

[Matt]

If you want an incentive: Mumbles, if you comment here again I will make barrels clips shoot putti at you next update.

EDIT: Oh wait so that's what that custom dark red text under his name was for. Moot point, I guess! >_>

[wildweasel]

Just give me a 3 day ban in off topic. It will help curb temptation to say anything. (wish debate wasn't so stifled, and otherwise I will open my gab again.)

Since it is not possible within the current phpBB framework to ban a user from a specific subforum, I hope that this is an acceptable compromise.